A Chaplain’s Guide To Healthy Grieving After Loss - Kathy Gingrich

Grief doesn’t follow a straight line, and it doesn’t only come after a funeral. We talk with chaplain Kathy Gingrich about what grief really looks like in real life and in healthcare, starting with a tender, honest story from Deb about saying goodbye to her beloved boxer, Maggie. Together we name the parts people rarely say out loud: the anticipatory grief that starts years before a loss, the way a pet’s unconditional love changes us, and why you don’t “get over it” so much as learn to carry it differently.

Kathy shares what she has learned from decades of chaplaincy, emergency care, and pastoral work: healthy grieving needs support, listening, and space to tell the story without critique. We unpack the spiritual questions that surface under stress, including guilt, unfinished words, “woulda, coulda, shoulda,” and the hard “where was God?” moments. We also discuss why popular grief stage models can be helpful but misleading when they imply a neat, linear process, and we explore deeper ways to normalize shock, anger, and disorientation while still moving toward hope.

We then connect grief support to simulation training and role-play for clinicians, educators, and support staff. Practicing end-of-life conversations, learning what not to say, preparing families for what dying can look like, and offering simple comforts and meaningful keepsakes can change a worst day into a less lonely one. If you’re grieving, supporting someone who is, or you work in healthcare and want better tools for spiritual care and compassionate communication, this conversation offers grounded guidance you can actually use.

Subscribe, share this with someone who needs it, and leave a review to help more listeners find practical, humane support for grief, loss, and healing.

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Transcript

Disclaimer And Show Welcome

Disclaimer/ intro 0:00

The views and opinions expressed in this program are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or positions of anyone at Innovative SIM Solutions or our sponsors. Welcome to The SIM Cafe, a podcast produced by the team at Innovative SIM Solutions, edited by Shelly Houser. Join our host, Deb Tauber, and co-host Jerrod Jeffries, as they sit down with subject matter experts from across the globe to reimagine clinical education and the use of simulation. So pour yourself a cup of relaxation, sit back, tune in, and learn something new from The Sim Cafe.

Deb Tauber 0:54

Welcome to another episode of The Sim Cafe, and today we have Kathy Gingrich, who is a dear friend, and she's a chaplain, and I've known her for at least 25 years, I think. Don't you think? Probably. Yeah. Yeah. We met at Good Samaritan Hospital in the emergency department where she was a chaplain and she provided so much comfort to me through the years. And today we're gonna talk about grief. So, Kathy, why don't you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself and your experiences? We'll talk about grief and simulation and how it can be helpful to people.

Kathy Gingrich 1:39

Okay, well, good to see you, Deb. Nice to be with you today. Thank you for this opportunity. I've worked as a um addiction counselor, chaplain, social worker, and pastor. So that's some of the experience that I bring. And grief's been a part of all that. Whether I was pastoring or working with alcoholics and addicts and their families, working in the emergency room, grief was pretty prevalent in my work experience. And I bring the belief that grief is a universal human experience, that very few people escape without experiencing grief. It's just universal. I think that cultural differences impact how we grieve. I think the circumstances of what we grieve impacts our response to grief. But I do think that we grieve real and imaginary things, Deb. So it's real and imaginary things. Then it's people, places, pets, opportunities. I think we grieve all of that.

Deb Tauber 2:52

Well, and I think it's interesting. Kath and I had talked about doing this podcast interview for years, to be honest. For years. And many of you listeners who are listeners may or may not know about my dog Maggie. And I lost Maggie this week, and I think that I grieved her loss, the her upcoming loss for years. And it was such a beautiful experience because I knew that I had appreciated her all along, but I knew that I wasn't going to get to keep her forever. I think that's the thing about animals. So when I lost her, we went ahead and called the veterinarian to come in and put her to sleep at home. And she had had some bleeding. She was bleeding from five different sources when we finally called the veterinarian. And we were able to have her fall asleep in my arms while she was eating ice cream. And I remember her that way. And I think what I had been grieving had been a dramatic loss to Maggie. And for that, for anyone who doesn't know, Maggie was a 65-pound Brindle boxer that I was so blessed to have for 12 and a half years. A beautiful sweet dog, a great spirit. Thank you. She really was. Now, Katha, do you think that grief ever really ends, or does it just change forms?

What Healthy Grief Looks Like

Kathy Gingrich 4:38

You know, I I think we can assimilate grief. I think we can integrate grief. I think we can accommodate and adjust to grief. But I I think our grief experiences are part of us, or part of our story, part of our narrative. Um, so I I think, you know, I think grief and loss initially can be pretty disorienting. And I think we can get reoriented and restabilized, but it becomes a part of it. Maggie's a part of your story, Dad. Maggie's in your heart. She left her paw prints all across your heart, maybe fur in your house, but but her paw prints are on your heart forever, and that becomes part of your story. It's how Maggie was a part of your life. So we accommodate, we adjust, we assimilate, um, but they become a part of us.

Speaker 1 5:26

us.

Deb Tauber 5:26

What does healthy grieving actually look like for from your perspective? From a perspective of chaplain, how do you believe if someone is grieving in a healthy way that that might look?

Kathy Gingrich 5:38

I think grief that is expressed in a healthy way is supported. I think the person or the situation or circumstances have support. I think the pain in the loss is acknowledged in such a way that we really listen and hear the story and the pain of the other person. And I think we do that without judging and analyzing and um lecturing the person or critiquing the person. Um grief needs an audience, and so for healthy grief to be worked through, I think that process involves support and acknowledgement. And telling the story is important, and the way you tell Maggie's story today, I promise you, Deb, will be different than how you tell that story six months from now. Um, because that story will evolve and your memories will evolve, and you will add things and you will subtract things from it, but that story kind of becomes a part. And so healthy grief is like that. It gets the story gets retold. You lit up when I told you about my assessment of Maggie as being a sweet spirited dog. You just got a smile to your face. I mean, so hearing those stories becomes part of the healthy grief too, I think. Um, and then when people can begin to share what they want and need, um, they can initiate activities again, they can initiate social contact again. Um, the sadness comes down a little bit and the the joy and happiness increases, is another way that healthy grief is expressed. Um, we find new outlets, new, we maybe learn something new, acquire new skills. Um I think we go we gain in self-esteem and strength because we we came through a tough time and we survived. We made it, we came to the other side of that. Um, and as a chaplain, I would say probably uh use a religious term or spiritual term on your bit, I think we kind of sanctify that experience. By that I mean we be begin to see them in a new light, in a in a new way. We release that love while we also acknowledge and give thanks for what we got and gave in that relationship. So there's an exchange that goes on that kind of makes that relationship more special, more holy, more a part of us, if you will. And I'm sure you have some bad memories of of Maggie too, maybe, and maybe when she puppy she chewed something or went potty somewhere, she won. There's probably some memory, but those begin to kind of dissipate, and we just see the the grief person or thing in a new light. And and we just cover them with love. That's healthy grief, I think.

Deb Tauber 8:25

Now, in chaplaincy school, are they beginning to use simulation or have they been using it or how do they use it?

Kathy Gingrich 8:33

It's been used somewhat, it's kind of called role-playing more in simulation, I think. But begin to act out scenes and how you might respond. And verbatims has always been a part of a chaplain experience. We've had to write verbatim and and have feedback on those. But I think the role-playing is another way that we get involved with um simulation.

Deb Tauber 8:55

So in chaplaincy, they just simply call it role-playing, they don't really call it simulation.

Kathy Gingrich 9:01

More role playing, I would say. Simulation's beginning to happen, but it's more role playing. Okay.

Deb Tauber 9:07

Where do you feel like people struggle most spiritually when they're grieving?

Why Grief Is Not Linear

Kathy Gingrich 9:13

It depends on the circumstances of the of the death. I mean, there's so many different ways of dying and different ways we experience grief and loss. But I think one common reaction is the woulda, coulda, shoulda. Is there more I could have said? Is there more I could have done? Is there where I could have been to that person? Did I do enough? Um when things feel unfinished that I didn't say or I didn't do something that I could have. I think another part of that, depending on one's spiritual and religious outlook, but where was God when X happened? You know, where was God when so-and-so committed suicide? Where was God when my daughter was drowning in that pool? Where was God, or why didn't God stop XYZ from happening? I think that's another spiritual struggle. And then why me? Why now? I mean, those are pretty common questions people ask when they're initially grieving.

Deb Tauber 10:12

Well, and I think you have in your experiences, I mean, how long did you do emergency medicine and chaplaincy? Uh well, I'm still doing chaplaincy a little bit. Um agree, agree. I know. So what has that been? Close to 30 years, Dev. So 30 years, and you don't call the chaplain in because it's well, sometimes you do for happy times, but many, many more times it's because people are in struggle, they're in pain, they're in, they're seeing something that they didn't expect. Right. And that's when, especially the the dabda, is that what they call it? The denial, anger, depression, bargaining, acceptance. That was Kluba Ross's take.

Kathy Gingrich 10:58

Yeah, it was helpful in many ways. There are other theorists and and theories of grieving and the grief process. She was aimed at a specific time, and I think she did great work, and I appreciate the work that she did. But I think sometimes people get hung up that it's a linear process, and I do A and then B and then C and then D. And it's it's not that way. It's much more of a churning wave process where you go through the cycle and you come back, and you might have denial one day and bargaining another, and come back to denial that this isn't real and this isn't happening, and this can't be. So I I think it's helpful, but I wouldn't want people to just get stuck on Kuba Ross's model.

Deb Tauber 11:42

Do you have a different model that you prefer?

Turning Loss Into Purpose

Kathy Gingrich 11:45

There's been, yeah, I've done the different ones. But I I also like the work of Granger Westburg in terms of the spiritual care side of it. There's often initially a kind of a shock reaction to the news of a death. Even when we anticipate someone's death, like my mom was in hospice at the end. We knew her time was coming. But even when that person takes that last breath, and in my case, I was able to hold my mom's hand. My brother had one hand and I had the other. But there's still kind of a wave of, is this real? Is it was this really her last breath? Is this really the end? And then imagine if it's a child that gets hit on a bicycle or a drowning or a teenager commits suicide. The shock is just increased so much more. But then he said there's kind of an emotional release. And sometimes there's just a physical release as well. I I think of people who just fell out, they fell to the ground in the emergency room when the doctor and I came in and had to break bad news to them. Um so there's a physical and some cry and there's an utterance. He also talked about panic and guilt feelings that people feel when there's a death. Sometimes there's anger. You know, why why didn't the doctors do more? Why didn't the police say something? Um so and then he talked about people just can't return to their usual activities. And I think that's often true too. People need kind of a time to reset themselves, but they just have a hard time. And then he's Granger Westbrook that eventually people begin to see glimpses of hope and they adjust to the reality and and they find a way to go forward. But I think he provided a little bit more depth to what Kubler Ross's model was. Um, so that that comes to mind.

Speaker 1 13:27

to mind.

Deb Tauber 13:27

Have you seen grief deepen someone's sense of meaning or purpose?

Kathy Gingrich 13:32

Oh, absolutely. I mean, I I think about my work with perinatal loss and all those parents that are part of a share program. A lot of people take their loss and turn it into helping others, that they've been through an experience and they want a companion and journey with someone. I mean, think about the parents who have lost children to gun violence, Deb. And there's a number of groups that when there's a school shooting, they step up and they go be with those families, like in Uvaldi, that had lost children tragically and traumatically. They take their grief and turn it into helping other people. Moms against drunk driving, mothers against drunk driving is one of those who, you know, they lost a loved one to someone's drinking or driving, and they're out there trying to educate and advocate. So absolutely, I've I've seen people live more purposefully. Yeah, a lot a lot of charitable kind of things come out of people's loss. They want to find ways that you know, it's a club no one wants to be a part of, like when you lose a child to gun violence or a SID's death, no one wants to be a part of that club, Deb. But they find themselves in that group, in that place, and they begin to help each other and they find strength in helping each other, I think. And people put resources into founding organizations and charities that help other people cope with grief and loss. Have you seen some of that in your work?

Deb Tauber 14:58

Oh, yeah, the grassroots, the grassroots people who've been affected by something. And I think civility is another, you know, situation where you've got, you know, how do we treat each other? I think that, you know, some of the work from Cynthia uh Clark, Dr. Clark, and some of the work by you know, some of the other individuals who have who've done that and seen that in healthcare, and how do you prepare people for incivility? How we treat each other is at the end of the day, it's so important.

Kathy Gingrich 15:34

Well, and it may be unfair of me to ask for a little too soon to ask, and I I want to be respectful about that. But do you see any way that Maggie's death is changing how you view the world or how you see your purpose right now in the world?

Deb Tauber 15:47

I think thanks for asking that, and thanks for being respectful of my feelings. I'm trying to, and I and I know that that I'm just trying to do this. I'm trying to look at her existence as having made me a better person to realize and recognize how much she gave me, how much she loved me, and what that unconditional love looked like. And earlier you said, you said you can remember when she was bad, when she was a puppy, there was so few times that I would be mad at her. For some reason, I found these things that she did funny and enduring. And she used to, you know, she'd run away sometimes and I'd have to catch her. And you know, I just playing with the toilet paper, and yeah, and she actually, because boxers are known to be working dogs, that's what they're raised for, they're trained for. And so she would go and I used to have rose gardens, and she would pull my rose bushes out after we would plant them. And in my perspective, I can only look at her life was a gift to me, and that I was truly blessed to have her for as long as I did. But I know in my heart and in my mind, I'll never find a replacement for her. There will never be, yeah. Right. It was funny because the last year or so I um I joined a Facebook grieving pets page, and it was really depressing because some of these people really would not be able to move forward at all after the death of their pet. And, you know, I think because animals love us when we're at our at our lowest point, when we might might consider ourselves ugly, our thoughts, and they don't they don't ever they don't ever treat us that way. They just look at us, look to us for, I don't know. It's a magical experience to to be blessed to have uh an animal.

What To Say And Not Say

Kathy Gingrich 17:53

Well, as you know, I had Izzy and Munchkin. Izzy was a poodle shutsu bishan mix potentially. She was a mixed dog in a rescue. Munchkin was a was a shihtsu, but they didn't care what kind of day I had in the ER at the hospital. They really did care. They just were happy to see me when I came home. They didn't care if I was in a good mood, bad mood. They just were there feed me, love me, play with me, walk me, all those kind of things. And I don't know about you, but there were some days I liked my dogs better than I liked some people. And so uh they just kind of helped help uh ground me sometimes, and uh I think they made me a better person too, because I wanted to be who they thought I was and take good care of them and feed them and love them and walk them and gave them the best medical care I could till the end. And so, and we're not been ready to get another dog yet, but one way I've kind of channeled that is I've been doing some pet sitting for some neighbors and friends, and I might get close to having another dog again thinking about it. But I I just feel I don't know, it just feels so good to have a pet in our lives, and so we have a cat still, and uh we spoil him. But yeah, grief, grief changes us, and they touch our lives, those pets. But people also grieve loss of jobs, loss of spouses, I mean loss of opportunities. There are a lot of things that people grieve. I think I had told you earlier that uh part of my job as a chaplain was to visit patients on the psych unit, and almost everyone I listened to had a grief loss trauma story somewhere earlier in their childhood, and they were still coping with that and dealing with that and trying to make sense of that grief experience. I don't know if time to say how do you help them with that? How do you how describe the what that looks like? My side of it would have looked like was to listen and to not try to talk too much, but just sort of hold space for their storytelling and their pain and and ask that how that's a part of their lives now. What do you still want to say or need to do about that experience? If they had any indication that they were people of faith, where is God for you in that? How has that affected your relationship with God? Um, some of those conversations came out of that.

Speaker 1 20:10

out of that.

Deb Tauber 20:10

Now, what do you think some of the most helpful things people can say or not say to someone who is grieving?

Kathy Gingrich 20:17

I think the tendency that I've seen with a lot of people is when people are grieving, there's a silence and people want to speak and fill the silence. And because of that intense raw moment of grief and the discomfort that many people feel in trying to respond to it, they tend to talk too much and they say too much. And so I think unintentionally many times, but they say things that aren't helpful, like, well, you shouldn't feel that way, or when it's a child death or a perinatal loss. Well, do you have other children at home? You know, Dad, that's not the point. I can have other children at home, but I just lost this child, my unique relationship with this child, or um, you know, a perenatal loss. Well, you and your husband can have other children. Maybe, maybe not, but again, that so disrespects the moment and the loss of this hoped-for child. So I think filling the space, trying to talk too much is part of it. People try to talk about themselves and one up, well, you lost a child, I've lost two children. Again, it's not time to one up the person that's grief, or well, this was God's plan. God needed another flower in the garden of heaven. I mean, things people say, and I really do think they mean well, but they're they're painful words, and they're words that stick with people kind of like a thorn sometimes, or adds adds to the scar that is forming in a way. I think helpful things to say are I can't even imagine what this is like for you right now, or how hard this might be. Um, please tell me. I know you weren't expecting this. Is there someone I can call to come and be with you at this time? So offering support, acknowledging that they might have someone else they want. Sometimes words aren't even needed. You know, just sit down in a chair beside the person, or if they're open to gentle touch or a hug, if it seems appropriate. Sometimes it's not the words, it's just being present in the moment and not being afraid. In in CPE, clinical pastoral education, we called it getting in the muck with people. You know, you're not afraid to stand in the painful dark place with people. I don't have to go away from that. I will stay here with you. And I think trying to avoid why questions, because why gets us into our head. And this is an emotional, intense experience. So why do you think this happens? Those questions aren't helpful. How can I be with you in this moment? I think that can help people think about it, but maybe get back to a feeling level. Well, I need a I need a water, I need to call my husband, I need someone to pick my child up from school. You know, all those kind of things then come to their minds.

Deb Tauber 23:11

And I think you touched upon something that that I didn't really think about, but when even when someone's given a diagnosis, they start a grief process then. Whether it be mental health diagnosis, a cancer diagnosis, a cardiac diagnosis, arthritis, the way we change.

Self-Care And Team Debriefing

Kathy Gingrich 23:32

Because it alters how it alters how we see ourselves and it alters how we see the future. I have a cancer diagnosis. Now I'm feeling very vulnerable. People may even feel betrayed by my body's letting me down right now. Or I I really worked hard to be physically fit. How can I have a heart issue now? So I mean, all of those things trigger a grief response or an anticipatory grief response that my life is somehow going to be changed or diminished in a way that I didn't expect or anticipate. Yeah. So that could start the process too. I think for those of us who work in healthcare or or work around a lot of death, have to remember that each death is unique. I mean, Deb, there were days I saw four, five, eight deaths on the same day. And I know people that have never seen a death or never been present when someone died. And so those are vastly different experiences in how we view life. But it no death is the same, no person is the same, no pet is the same. And so how we experience that, we have to remember in this moment at this time and just stay in the place right now.

Speaker 1 24:45

now.

Deb Tauber 24:45

How do you carry all those stories without becoming overwhelmed?

When Grief Feels Stuck

Kathy Gingrich 24:49

I think rituals of self-care are really important. Massages, exercise, going for walks, uh, eating well, make sure you don't overindulge in substances that are harmful. Prayer was a part of that for me. And I think I've told you before that, but I had this ritual. We had a house up on Lake Michigan that we would go to every every few weeks. And I would go down by the lake and I would sit there and I would extend my hands. And the the traumas and the deaths and the painful things that I was still holding on to as a chaplain, I would imagine putting them into Lake Michigan. And I would ask God to take those experiences. And to me, Lake Michigan is a little bit like an ocean, it's got waves and current too. And give those experiences to the lake, to God, and ask God to take them and give back to me what I still needed to work on or carry or learn from. But I got rid of a lot of stuff that I was carrying just by that ritual of release and accepting what God wanted to give to me. I also think when you have the opportunity in healthcare, which we often did, debriefings and diffusings were really important to in that moment to get to put together the story. I think of one time when one of the nurses was really upset because she didn't think the patient had been anointed. And I actually had arranged for a priest to come and do the anointing. But she was carrying with her the belief that that had not happened and that was disruptive for her and that the patient's care had been neglected. But because I had been part of that story, I could say, no, no, the priest was here and anointed and provided that before the patient died. So had we not sat down together for a diffusing, she wouldn't have known that part of the story, and I wouldn't have known how much pain she was carrying. But because we came together in a diffusing, we could talk about that stuff together. So I think that's another way of doing it, to be able to talk about it and what each person brought and contributed to that experience, what their role was and what they're still carrying from it. I was really surprised in my career, but a generation or two ago, doctors were taught that if the patient died, they failed. And I just couldn't believe that. But they, a couple of different doctors, assured with me that that was true, and that back then they weren't taught how to help people cope with end-of-life conversations. I remember one doctor who refused to ever write hospice orders for his patients who were clearly imminently dying, but it just wasn't his belief system to have that happen. And so I think we have to have realistic expectations about who we are and what we can and can't provide. We can't help everybody all of the time, but we can help some of the people some of the time, and I think we have to do that. So I think that's how I cope with carrying that. And sometimes just personally for me, imagining Jesus taking that person the rest of the way to God or coming and intervening, you know, with it for me as a Christian. Um, but I acknowledge that there are other faith traditions and just as valid, valid and valuable as well. But for me, God was a part of that.

Speaker 1 28:09

of that.

Deb Tauber 28:09

Thank you. So what would you recommend for someone who feels like they're stuck in grief? How long have they been stuck?

Finding Grief Support Resources

Kathy Gingrich 28:17

Are they aware of what where they're stuck? Again, I think we have to set real expectations about grief. You know, in our culture, you get three days off when a spouse or a parent or a child dies, we're still in shock and denial the first three days of a death often. And so, you know, there's not ABC linear way to death here, and it's not like I'm gonna do this week one and week two, and by week six everything will be hunky-dory again. I mean, I think I think we have to normalize the experience. I think if they're not eating, sleeping, that kind of thing, and it's been an extended period of time, then I think they would want to talk with their doctor, their practitioner, a mental health counselor, clinician to see if there's some things that might help. Because if you don't get good sleep, then it's hard to do other things as well. So is medication needed? That would be outside of my realm of experience, but doctors or other healthcare practitioners can have those conversations. Are there things that they can do to journal about the experience? Are they part of a grief support group? Are they willing to go to a grief support group? Is there someone in their faith community at the mosque, the synagogue, the temple, the parish that they would want to talk with about that grief to be in trying to unpack the parts where they feel stuck? I mean, I think if people aren't supported, then grief does get derailed and they form unhealthy relationships with food, alcohol, drugs, other people, because they're looking for something that fills a hole that is not the right thing to fill that hole for them, in my opinion. So I think I think that's part of it.

Deb Tauber 29:53

No, I think that's very helpful. And if any of our listeners are looking for places to join grief groups or support groups, where can they go for those kinds of resources?

Kathy Gingrich 30:03

A lot of funeral homes and hospice organizations offer grief support groups. You can probably Google that for a lot of places. And even if you live in rural areas, things are done on Zoom. I know in our area we have grief support groups that are done on Zoom for people that they can still participate even if they can't physically go and be present. So that would be one place I would suggest. And there's very specialized teenagers that are grieving support groups. There are support groups for people that lost pets, survivors of suicide situation. I mean, there's all kinds of specialized support groups out there. Um but I think acknowledging that one is stuck, that that's you know, initially we can see people overreacting perhaps in our point of view, but really they're just reacting normal to the abnormal event, right? Right, right, right, right, right. So, but when it becomes like a prolonged, extended thing and it's affecting my activities of daily living, it's affecting my ability to socialize and engage normally, to eat, drink, to eat, sleep, all that kind of stuff, then I then I need an intervention, I need help, I need I need a companion to walk me through that. I it's interesting, I've had several friends recently diagnosed with breast cancer in different healthcare systems, and they have reported that they've been assigned a navigator or someone to journey with them through that. And I think how cool, that wasn't there a number of years ago. Right. And nurse navigators. Yeah, and so I think you know, some funeral homes offer support groups as well. So if they've been involved with funeral homes, that might be another place to go.

Using Simulation To Prepare Families

Deb Tauber 31:42

Thank you. Thank you so much for being part of this conversation and sharing your thoughts and insights and experiences with our listeners and especially with me. I'm so very grateful for our friendship.

Kathy Gingrich 31:57

Can I talk a little bit more about simulation with you, that? Because we talked about how this ties into simulation. Absolutely. I think part of what that can do is help to normalize the experience. Like I said, these are normal reactions to an abnormal event, and we can help people by helping them prepare and anticipate what is to come. You were part of a grief support group with pet loss, so you were anticipating some things that were going to come with Baggy's end times. So that got you a little bit more ready. And I think we can do that in our practice conversations with people and in simulation. You know, your loved one's breathing is going to slow down. No, I can't give them a drink. I can't give your dad a drink anymore, but I can put a wet washcloth on his face. I mean, there's things you can begin to do to help people prepare. I had a neighbor who's dog, she had to have the dog euthanized, and she said, Kathy, will you go with me? I I can't be in the room. I I know it's time, but I just can't be in the room. And I said, Absolutely, I will go with you, I will stay in the room, I will hold Toby's paw till the end. And by the time we got through the process, she was able to stand in the doorway while the while the vet and I were with Toby. But Deb, I would not have judged her if she didn't come in the room because we all deal with grief differently and we all have different levels of tolerance. I was so glad for her that she could be in the room and see that it was a peaceful process. Um, the other thing I think in simulations, we can help people learn to say, thank you, and I'm sorry, and I love you, and I'm gonna miss you, and thank you for teaching me XYZ. I think in simulations too, if there's something that we can give back to that person, you know, a prayer, a word of comfort, a scripture, a reading, a video, a picture. I know sometimes we have cut like a lock of hair or a fingerprint or a thumbprint or a handprint or a footprint, start a memory box. Uh, we've given children blankets or stuffed animals. If there's some little tangible thing that we can give people, um, not I don't mean hokey thing, I mean a real genuine something that we can help them in that moment. I think simulation helps us prepare for that. I don't, I don't want people to lie, but learning to say, you did everything you could, you called 911, you gave them the best chance possible. If they really weren't in pain when they died or were dying, you know, they they were peaceful. I mean, I think there's things we can say and do in those moments to help prepare people for the pain and loss that is to come. I used to say that I was with people in the worst days of their lives, you know, the worst day of their life when their child died or their spouse died. But really, I think some of the worst moments are when you come home and the house is empty, they're not at the table anymore. You know, you look down at Maggie's bed and she's not on her bed anymore. But if we can prepare people for that loss, is there someone that can go home with you? Is there someone that will can be there? Do you want to go to someone else's home for tonight? Uh you know, just helping people, because grief is so disorienting. And if we can help them reorient a little bit, that's a gift we can give to people. But thank you. I thank you.

Deb Tauber 35:14

I didn't No, I'm really glad that you added that because you're 100% right. I know I have a a little shrine set up with Maggie's things. I have a her collar and I have her bell that she used to ring, and I haven't been able to move the beds yet. There's still five beds around the house. My husband moved the dog bowls, the toys are still there. It's a process. It's a process.

Kathy Gingrich 35:41

Not a timeline, not linear.

Deb Tauber 35:43

No. All right. Well, thank you. Thank you for the opportunity. And happy simulating.

Disclaimer/ intro 35:57

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