During this episode, Dr. Jamie Robertson shares her story about Harvard and how they are able to use simulation to save doctors on medical malpractice premiums. Thank you Jamie for this discussion, a "must listen"....

Dr. Jamie M. Robertson is an Assistant Professor of Surgery at Harvard Medical School and the Direction of Innovation in Surgical Innovation in the Department of Surgery at Brigham and Women’s Hospital. She drives efforts within the surgery department to develop curricula and assessments to support medical students, residents, fellows, and faculty. Additionally, she serves on the leadership of multiple teaching and clinical research courses within the Harvard Medical School’s Postgraduate Medical Education portfolio. Nationally, she is an Associate Editor for the Healthcare Simulation Dictionary and a lader in simulation design and implementation She is one of the first fifty individuals to earn the designation of Certified Healthcare Simulation Educator-Advanced.  Dr. Robertson’s funded research involves studying teamwork and communication between members of medical teams in both terrestrial and deep space environments. Dr. Robertson completed her undergraduate education at Seattle University before earning her MPH in Behavioral and Community Health Sciences and PhD in Epidemiology from the University of Pittsburgh Graduate School of Public Health. 

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Transcript

Disclaimer: 0:00

The views and opinions expressed in this program are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or positions of anyone at innovative Sim Solutions or our sponsors.

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Intro: 0:53

Welcome to The Sim Cafe, a podcast produced by the team at Innovative Sim Solutions, edited by Shelly Houser. Join our host, Deb Tauber and co-host Jerrod Jeffries as they sit down with subject matter experts from across the globe to reimagine clinical education and the use of simulation. So pour yourself a cup of relaxation, sit back, tune in, and learn something new from The Sim Cafe.

Deb: 1:34

Welcome to another episode of The Sim Cafe today. I'm your host, Deb Tauber. I'm here with co-host Jerrod Jeffries and we are here with Dr. Robertson. Welcome Dr. Robertson. And thank you for being a guest. Dr. Robertson is an assistant professor of surgery at Harvard Medical School. Ann, the Director of Innovation and Surgical Innovation in the Department of Surgery at Brigham and Women's Hospital. She drives efforts within the surgery department to develop curricula and assessments to support medical students, residents, fellows, and faculty. And I'm gonna have Dr. Robertson, would you like to be called Dr. Robertson or Jamie?

Jamie: 2:15

Jamie is perfectly fine.

Deb: 2:17

Okay. Thank you very much. Why don't you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself and we'll get started.

Jamie: 2:22

Great. So I have been at Brigham and Women's Hospital for now, it's been almost eight years, which is a long time. And I, I started there as the Assistant director of Simulation-based Learning, which is also a mouthful of a title at the Stratas Center for Medical Simulation. And I, I got really lucky that they were willing to hire me because I did not have a background in medical education. I didn't have a background in simulation, but I somehow managed to convince them that I would be able to learn those things and so they were willing to take a chance on me. And I was there for about four years, I think, uh, in that position then as the director of education and then our surgery department got this great position for a PhD educator. And so I was very happy to continue working with the surgeons that I'd worked with and move over there to continue doing a lot of the simulation stuff within that department and also get to expand a little bit into some other areas of medical education.

Deb: 3:29

Great. Now can you share your journey into simulation itself?

Jamie: 3:34

Yeah, so I went to school for public health. I did my master's in behavioral science and my PhD in epidemiology. And then I started a position that was really in patient safety for an anesthesia department looking at their clinical outcomes. And I, I had always been involved in education. Um, I think I really didn't want to become a teacher, but I somehow always ended up in education spaces. And so I, I had these great opportunities there to do more education work with our residents a lot, which I loved. And also to get involved with a couple of their sim projects that are around patient safety and how they could look at their code blues that they did and the sim program that they had for that, for their mock codes around the hospitals. That was my first exposure to simulation outside of a CPR course. And so it's just, it was really fascinating and I was interested in getting into more medical education spaces and so I started looking for jobs. Boston was one of the cities that I was targeting to move to at that time cuz it was a, it had all the things that I wanted in a city big enough without being too big. It's close to lots of outdoor spaces and it has great culture and restaurants and things like that. And so I saw the job opening for it and um, it was the right position at the right time. And so then I really learned a lot on the job from the people I worked with about sort of the specifics around simulation around how the different things work and did a lot of sort of on-the-job training

Jerrod: 5:13

As we all do. I love the ambitiousness of, of going after what you wanted and feeling the fit and just saying, Hey, I have a foundations and background, but I'll learn the rest. And I think that's, that's, that's the way to do it, especially these days. And you said that was eight years ago?

Jamie: 5:27

Yeah, that was 2015, so almost eight years ago now. Yeah.

Jerrod: 5:31

Great.

Deb: 5:32

How did you get into the society? How did that happen and when did you start there?

Jamie: 5:37

So I actually joined the society very shortly after I started that job in 2015. Um, it was all of the people in the center were members of S S H, the Society for Simulation and Healthcare and going to the January International meeting and simulation and healthcare that they had was a basically a job requirement. And so I joined right away, went to that conference the first year. It was great. I didn't have to present anything, I didn't have any meetings to go to. All I had to do was go to sessions and workshops the entire time and learn from all these amazing people who were there. And so that was really my introduction to the society and it's been a, it's been a really important place for me in terms of my professional development and networking and also just meeting a lot of great people and making friends.

Jerrod: 6:29

I would love to see that being a job requirement on more people's<laugh>, uh, list of responsibilities. That's a nice one.

Jamie: 6:36

Yeah, my supervisor told me on the first day that it was a non-optional work obligation.

Deb: 6:42

Yeah. And you've really risen through the ranks there, but you've had many roles. Why don't you tell us a little bit about the roles you had and what you are doing now?

Jamie: 6:53

Yeah, so you know, I really wanted to get more involved in the society and have some sort of service position and so they originally joined the affiliate subcommittee that was part of the external relations committee that sort of handled really working on those affiliate relationships between SSH and between other simulation societies, both sort of domestically as well as around the world. And so I got involved as part of that subcommittee and then eventually served as the chair of that subcommittee and then up into the actual committee, the external relations committee where I was vice chair and then chair. And also from there worked sort of as the liaison to the media and communications committee and some other places within the society, which has just been a lot of fun. And then right now I am vice chair of our development committee really working on the brand new SSH fund that we have going to really try to make sure that we can continue future endeavors of providing scholarships to people who need them in order to attend IMSH, providing grants to researchers who are working on stuff as well as to operations folks around some of their sim inventors things. And then I also am co-chair for 2020 fours IMSH in January of 2024. Which sounds like it's really far away but is very soon.

Deb: 8:30

Yes, it is. Do you have a favorite or most impactful simulation story that you'd like to share with our listeners?

Jamie: 8:38

I do. I think one of my favorite stories, so one of the courses that I've been involved with basically the entire time that I've been at the Brigham is our operating room team training program that runs with our faculty surgeons, our faculty anesthesiologists, and then our staff or nurses and scrub technicians who come into those centers. And I think it happens a couple times over the course of them, but sometimes people come in and they don't really know what they're expecting get coming into this course, they just know that they're with us for four hours to do something related to team training. That's a long time to be sort of stuck in a place you don't know anything about. And often people come in and sort of say, I don't really know why I'm here, I'm here cuz they made me come here. Or just really being unsure or just being there because they were forced to. And my favorite moment has been when one of our faculty members at the end of the course when we asked for takeaways really said, Hey, I, I didn't really wanna be here today. I didn't know what I was signing up for, but, and they had this really big takeaway of a self-reflection of not communicating properly in the OR and really being able to take that and reflect and say, Hey, I have just figured out that I'm not doing these things that I should be doing and how that's impacting everyone else in the room. And so being able to take that away and go back to hopefully their OR and start making those changes and really seeing those and hopefully also influencing others.

Deb: 10:28

Excellent, excellent. Now you guys are doing something really special. Why don't you share the story of what you guys are doing to save physicians and anesthesiologists money?

Jamie: 10:41

Yeah, so that's our or team training program again, and we're very lucky. So the Harvard affiliated hospitals all have a single malpractice insurer, pricco, which also happens to be a really great patient safety organization. So they have been really invested in pro making care for patients safer in those hospitals as well as looking at what they can do to help support the people at those hospitals to provide that safe care and also protect themselves from, um, errors or issues that might come up that would then result in them having to go to court or having some sort of settlement. And so even before I started at the Brigham, they had this great program in place where our malpractice insurer funded an initial grant period as a trial period to see can you actually run a simulation program where you bring together attending level anesthesiologists and surgeons as well as, or nurses and technicians into the same room at the same time for four hours to run a course like this. And I'll say the, the scheduling and getting people into the same room on the same day at the same time is the hardest part of running this course. It's not the simulation stuff or the curriculum or any of that, but they were very successful at a number of the hospitals around there, very successful in getting this course off the ground. The evaluations were really good. And so they got that initial grant funding for a number of years to keep it going. And so that helped pay for the actual running of the course. Um, getting all those things, providing the CEUs to people that were in them, but they also to really help us encourage people to come, provided a little bit of a carrot in the form of malpractice insurance discounts to our physicians who attended the course, so for the anesthesiologists and surgeons that we had. And so that really does help incentivize people to come but also make up for the fact that when they're attending the course, they're not at clinic, they're not in the operating room, they aren't doing the things that they might normally doing be doing that would contribute to their own personal revenue income things. And so it really has, I think, helped us build the program for people to be able to do that and to be able to come and be a big part of that program. And we right now train over a hundred people a year in that program. It's on a three year cycle that goes through. And so it's, it's been a really great program. It's now funded by our hospital, so the, our malpractice insurer still provides that discount, but we actually run the program thanks to support from our hospital, our simulation center, and our faculty that work on it.

Deb: 13:47

What is that discount, if I may ask?

Jamie: 13:50

It varies. So it's set depending on people's sort of credentialed status and you know, what specialty they're in and stuff. So it's not a set number. So I don't know when our surgeons ask either.

Deb: 14:04

Okay.

Jerrod: 14:05

And, and that shows such efficacy if, if they're willing to pick it up now and you know, hand it over hand over the reins to say this, there's such value here that's, that's impressive. Yeah,

Jamie: 14:14

I think, you know, really that initial pilot was really important to them and we had our, you know, attending level people come through that study at a variety of the hospitals. So I don't know exactly every hospital that was part of it, but it was a number of the Harvard affiliated hospitals that had either some sort of simulation center or simulation space that they could use. And they, they really from there have been very supportive. I think that the data probably shows them that it works in some way, shape, or form, but that, that's not available to us to look at. So we just have to trust them.

Jerrod: 14:54

I mean this is no data back, uh, answer, but why do you think that course was sticky or why do you think that had such traction with all the attendees of, of giving up that opportunity cost and also being engaged?

Jamie: 15:07

I really think that it's because we are putting them in teams that are very similar to what they have in the or. So they're coming down and they're working with anesthesiologists that they might actually work with in the or they're working with the nurses and the scrub techs that they work with in the or. And so I think that makes it a really good experience for them. I also think we are very grateful to the support that we've received from high level people at the hospital. So the department chairs and the division chiefs who email their faculty and say, you need to do this, you need to show up, you need to get it done, who look at lists of who hasn't done it and reach out to people. We have the people in those departments who've risen to higher ranks in the hospital and maybe could easily use that to say, I'm not gonna attend this course anymore. They still come, they come even though they're probably not in the ORs that often anymore and they certainly could make a good case that they're too busy to come. They still show up to the course. And so I think we have been very lucky that we have that sort of support all the way around for the program that really makes it, makes it great.

Deb: 16:22

Now are you able to share what cases you guys do? What, when did you practice high risk, low frequency?

Jamie: 16:29

Yeah, so we, we do try to change it up a little bit from time to time, but our learning objectives really are around closed loop communication situation, awareness and speaking up and assertiveness for patient safety. And so we always do our, one of our cases is really focused on the surgical timeout that occurs and so they have to go through that whole thing. There's always a few surprises in that, I won't say exactly what those surprises are, but then they, they typically go through and there's a hemorrhage event as part of that. I'll assume most of them probably won't listen to this before they come to the course. So I'm pretty safe. And then we have a case that's typically a code blue scenario and then we have an airway emergency case as part of it. So we really try to make sure that there's something that is more focused on each of the professions that are there, everybody's involved, but it's, you know, somebody's main focus that they should maybe be leading that event as part of it.

Deb: 17:38

Thank you. Jerrod, do you have any questions on it?

Jerrod: 17:41

Yeah, I, I don't wanna draw parallels. So correct me where, where I kind of digress, but with you being the co-chair of several committees as well as this, what do you believe to be some of your biggest challenges and what, is there any piece of advice that you might wanna share with others?

Jamie: 17:59

I mean I think one of the biggest challenges in general is just scheduling and timing of things. It's a real challenge to get to use those spaces and once you get stuff set up, once you have something on the schedule, making sure that it's not going to sort of fall through. So I find that really that challenge of getting on people's schedules in a DISD sustained manner so that you can sustain an effort is one of the hardest parts. So it's easy to get something going and then being able to keep that really like long-term vision for something going over a long period of time when you're dealing completely with busy professionals. Um, so everybody's busy, everybody has a hundred things that they wanna go to and especially now with things being on Zoom, it's very easy for people to come to your meeting but also be writing all their emails or come to your meeting and also be on another meeting on another device that they have off to the side. Oh I

Jerrod: 19:00

Haven't seen that one. Wow.<laugh>.

Deb: 19:03

Well and I think sustainability, you're talking about sustainability and I think that that's one of the things that you mentioned just as you know a couple minutes ago was that even people who could have a chance to not go will make the case to go. And if you ask me that's, that's being very wise on their part because low frequency, right, you're not gonna do it all the time. So what if you do get pushed in there to do it, you're gonna be ready, right? Mm-hmm<affirmative> hats off to them.

Jamie: 19:29

Yeah, I think it's great and I think it really shows that they believe and care about the program and I think also they're curious, what we're doing are folks only come through once every three years so they're interested in what's going on, where the hospital money's going and it's nice to have them actually come to the course and experience it rather than just ask me for a PowerPoint slide deck on what I've been doing for the last year.

Jerrod: 19:56

Yeah. And I think throughout the pandemic that's what was really missing, right? Was that in person piece. So the PowerPoint or slide deck is a foundation to say, hey, here is content. But when you have just as with s ssh of the Boston course around you know, different groups, it's, it is so much more powerful when you're able to experience it in person.

Jamie: 20:14

Yeah, I completely agree. I will say we moved this or team training course online during the pandemic cuz we didn't really have a choice initially. We couldn't go and do it and we needed to get people through the program. So we moved in online and we actually have really tried to look at should we continue doing online, do we go back in person, do we do some sort of hybrid approach? And there's a lot that we miss being online, but I also think we've been very good at meeting our learning objectives in that online place. We really push people that they have to have their cameras on, they have to be available. We've had to change some of how we do stuff in it, but it also has allowed some opportunities we didn't have before. So people who really work farther away than our main hospital and wouldn't maybe be able to come for a four hour course because it's a two hour drive each way, they're giving up their whole day for that. Um, or people who otherwise can't come in, maybe they're out of the hospital because they um, are sick and they're too sick to come into the hospital for some reason or not allowed to, but they are well enough that they could attend a Zoom thing. And so we've been able to capitalize on that as well. And that, uh, that was really, I was very nervous about it and very excited when it went. Okay. Because I was very nervous about trying to run these on Zoom for such a complicated thing for so long.

Deb: 21:40

Can you share with our listeners the biggest thing you'd like them to know? Something that when you learned it, it really changed the way you practice a personal aha moment?

Jamie: 21:51

I think for me the aha moment, especially around simulation came in one of the control rooms when we were talking about, you know, the technology didn't work right that day. Not the first time, not the last time it didn't work right? But the technology just wasn't working that day and we had a model and it was supposed to be bleeding and it wasn't bleeding and so nobody in the room had to deal with the bleeding. And we were trying to figure out what to do and there were a lot of suggestions around like, could we do, you know, could we throw something else at them? Could we do this, could we do that? And the question then came to, well the model's not working, they're not dealing with that, but are we meeting our learning objectives anyway? And that piece of thinking about, well they are talking to each other, they do have to demonstrate situational awareness. There's other things for them to look at and do. And so even though the case didn't unfold the way we wanted, it didn't unfold the way they expected. And people were certainly a little confused as to why afterwards cuz they're not used to going to simulation where nothing goes wrong and everything just goes beautifully the entire time. But that like moment of, well everything may have gone wrong to us, but we still met all of our learning objectives. The learners still got, everything that they came for has really served as like a checkpoint for myself. Often when I get flustered because technology's not working, something didn't work out, people somehow got the wrong thing and it feels like it's falling apart that actually if we're meeting our learning objectives, if we're doing what we're supposed to do and what we promised to deliver, that it doesn't matter that it isn't working.

Deb: 23:31

Yes, yes. That's a great, a great, uh, a great story. I think that so often we look at a technology failure and we think, oh, we've gotta stop. And I think you're, you're right. If, if the learners are are meeting the objectives, why stop? Obviously if you know the objective is therapeutic communication and there's pulseless and they start c P r, that's not the objective. And in a case like that you might wanna pivot in a different way. But I think that you uh, bring up a a very good point. Thank you for sharing that. Aha.

Jerrod: 24:06

And it also shows how malleable nurses have to be obviously on the job and simulationist to say this is what we're given, we're just gonna have to go with that. True to their nature most of the time.

Jamie: 24:16

Yeah, and that's, I mean it's also a great advantage of working with some of our learners who are at a higher level or are at an attending level as that, you know, they're not there just once they can come back again, we're going to get to see them and they're not there for anything high stakes either. So I don't have to worry that not everyone's getting the same thing or that the assessments ruined. I get to really focus on the learning and think about how, how do we help them learn what they're supposed to today and then if everything's not working, we figure something else out.

Deb: 24:49

Now your center is accredited, correct?

Jamie: 24:52

That is correct.

Deb: 24:53

And were you there when they received the accreditation?

Jamie: 24:57

Yes, I was actually employed at the center when they got their accreditation.

Deb: 25:02

And can, can you share with us a little bit about the journey?

Jamie: 25:05

I think it's a long journey to that. Our simulation center had already been around for a long time when that accreditation came out and we really wanted to go after it. But going through all of that documentation and thinking about what is our process for these things? And for most of them you probably already have a process or have something that you're doing or have the documentation somewhere. But going through that really forces you to put it on paper and forces you to think about how could we be doing this better? Is this really the best way? Is this a real process or does it just sort of work that way? And then also thinking about what is the information that just lives in somebody's head at the simulation center instead of being in a protocol or a policy or some sort of documentation so that if somebody's not there, somebody else can figure it out. Going through that reading, all of that, reflecting on that, I think it really did make us a better place because through that process we also learned a lot about what we were doing, what other people were doing and how maybe we could do a better job with things that we just haven't thought of before.

Deb: 26:20

When did you become accredited?

Jamie: 26:22

I think it was 2017.

Deb: 26:24

So you're gonna be due for recr soon?

Jamie: 26:27

Uh, I know they have gone through reaccreditation. Okay.

Deb: 26:30

Okay. So the original was they've been reaccredited, so you were there for both of them?

Jamie: 26:36

Yeah, I was very involved in the initial one and not really involved in the reaccreditation.

Deb: 26:43

Okay. Is there anything that you'd like our listeners to know about being accredited and what it means to you, what it means to your center?

Jamie: 26:51

I really think that being accredited puts this sort of mark on your center that you really are following best practices. That you've gone through this process of really pure review from people who know about simulation, who've seen a lot of simulation centers and said, yes, you meet these high standards that we've set that are for these centers. And so you sort of become part of a group of people that are in that. From faculty standpoint, I think it's also great to be able to use that to help move things along for stuff when it's stuck. To be able to say, I'm sorry, we have to have this documentation, it's required for our accreditation. And that's something that I think people understand and know what accreditation means and you can sort of push some of those things about why you have to have evaluations, why you have to have, um, curriculum in a certain amount of time in advance and put them on that accreditation process. And it's something that people respect and understand and allows you to put a little bit more pressure on people

Jerrod: 28:00

And to your point, right, it's it's written down, it's there, everybody has the level playing field instead of, oh, that one person's out, we who we can't find this out now.

Jamie: 28:09

Yes.

Deb: 28:10

Right. And making up different rules for different people. I think that, you know, often happens, well so and so doesn't have to do that because well everybody has to do it because we're accredited. That's just the way it is. Yeah. Are there any questions that you wanna ask us?

Jamie: 28:26

What is the best piece of advice that you have gotten from someone on your podcast?

Deb: 28:32

Wow, that's stomper. I think. Jared, do you have any since we've been doing this with

Jerrod: 28:38

Yeah. Maybe it's also recency bias, but I loved earlier commenter who said you gotta find an internal champion. So Right. If that's with accreditation, if that's with these grants, if that's with the malpractice piece, there's always gotta be someone from the inside that kind of helps. Excuse the sports language, quarterback the initiative. Right? And I think all too often sometimes people are like, this is gonna save you money, this is gonna make you money, this is gonna do, you know, higher, higher impact or there's some sort of efficacy that even shows that, hey, this is a good thing. But if someone from the inside isn't really carrying that forward, then you're always gonna be looking out the wall for a little while. And I think that that's where you gotta connect with it. So that would be for me.

Deb: 29:22

And I think one that's gonna release on Tuesday next week, she's an actress and hers was don't try harder, tried different. And I think that so often we get into a situation and we are not successful the first time we went for some reason things don't go the way that we want. So then we double down on our effort and think we have to muscle it out when it might not be that, it might be just try something different, right? What's the definition of insanity? So I, I think that was something that, and, and maybe once again, that's the recency thing that, you know, I've just listened to that this morning. But yeah, that is one thing.

Jerrod: 30:02

But that was a difficult question, Jamie, that it's, we've had a lot of great guests and, and of course appreciate your time here too. This is, uh, I've learned a lot here, so I, I excluded anything from our conversation because I mean, as you mentioned with, with 2024, you know, maybe that's when you start getting the meetings on the, on the books.<laugh>, I'm, I'm teasing of course, but yeah. Yeah.

Deb: 30:23

Now if our listeners wanna get ahold of you, learn more about the study, become, be able to do this themselves. I know that the article, I've read the article and the return on investment is at a free available or do you have to buy a prescription somewhere?

Jamie: 30:39

I'm not sure. I think it's available, but I'm not, I'm not a hundred percent sure cause I haven't tried to pull it recently. It certainly is out there and pretty easy to find. There's also, we have a whole book chapter in one of the, um, simulation in healthcare series from Springer about basically the setup and running of that program. So it has all the little tiny details of how we've arranged that over time. And then I'm of course always welcome to talk to people about it. I this is, I told you guys before we started, that's my favorite thing to talk about and that's definitely true. So I will talk to anyone about it and I think I can give you my email to put in the show notes to share with people and I, I welcome people to email me about it.

Deb: 31:30

Is it in the book def the second edition of Defining Excellence?

Jamie: 31:34

No, it's not. It's uh, it's not in that book. It's in a separate book on interprofessional education using simulation that's published by a different group.

Deb: 31:44

Okay. Thank you. Are there any final words you would like our listeners to remember this conversation by?

Jamie: 31:52

I think my final words would just be to encourage people to get involved. It can be really hard if when you're at an institution and you're the only person or maybe you're just a part of a really small group of people running simulation. And unless you're at a huge organization, you probably are one of a few people and it can feel very lonely and it can feel very hard. And so I think for me, the reason that I've stayed in it, the reason that I love it so much and continue to do it, is the people that I've met through it who are colleagues, mentors, sponsors, friends, all of that throughout this. And so really getting involved, s SSH is a great place to get involved. Of course there are other organizations as well, but getting involved, join committees if they exist, go to meetings, connect with people online because I think we can all learn so much from each other and we're more spread out than in other professions where you can sort of turn to somebody else who's right there. And that has made a big difference for me. I know it's made a big difference for other people. And so I just really encourage people, it's a very welcoming community and they'd be happy to talk to you, get to know you and help you with anything.

Jerrod: 33:08

And we've heard that often. So I, I love that uniform message from others within the space and a lot around that, that hub of, of s ssh and of course there's others. But that's, uh, that's great. And thank you Jamie, this has been a fantastic conversation.

Jamie: 33:23

Thank you. Yeah,

Deb: 33:24

Thank you Jamie. Thank you so much for sharing your pearls and all the things that you're doing and we look forward to anything you wanna tell us about on the planning committee? Anything that you can, uh, no, you can't do a spoiler alert, but, um, have anything you can share.

Jamie: 33:40

Yeah, we are really excited for IMSH 2024. It's back in San Diego, which happens to be my favorite of the locations that it rotates to. And also the very first IMSH I ever attended was in San Diego, so it makes it even more special to me. We, last year, or this year I guess we broke a lot of records for a number of attendees. We're hoping to break those records again this year and really encourage people. Our theme is around idea, so innovation, dissemination, education and advocacy. And we really want people to show up with their ideas, whatever big ideas they have, stuff that's innovative, things that are new that they wanna share with people because we know that people are doing so much cool stuff out there and we only get to see a little bit of it. So we wanna see the really out of the box ideas that people have, the stuff that they are building on, and really continue to push things to the edge. So our call for content is open right now until sort of early June. So now is a good time to get your proposals in if you have something you wanna share. There's lots of great opportunities for people in operations, research, education, administration, innovation, all of those areas. And then we're gonna have, we're gonna have a lot of fun in San Diego, we're gonna have great plenary speakers and lots of other sort of fun surprises there. So start planning your trip and packing your bags.

Deb: 35:12

Thank you, Jared. Any closing thoughts?

Jerrod: 35:16

Oh, this has been great and thanks. We'll definitely see be seeing you there, Jamie.

Deb: 35:19

We will see you there. Thank you and happy simulating

Beaker Heath Tag: 35:24

Thanks to Beaker Health for sponsoring this week's episode, Beaker Health, improving patient care through community crowdsourcing platforms with Beaker Health. You'll have all the tools you need to succeed.

Outro: 35:43

Thanks for joining us here at The Sim Cafe. We hope you enjoyed, connect with us at www.innovativesimsolutions.com and be sure to hit that like and subscribe button so you never miss an episode of The Sim Cafe.