The Sim Cafe~ Interview with William N. Martin

Bill Martin has had simultaneous careers in the Electric Utility Industry and in Medicine. 

Electrical utility Experience:

CUSP certified with T&D endorsement, 20 years experience in distribution and transmission as a Lineman/ Line Foreman. 9 years as an area Line Supervisor responsible for distribution and transmission projects Saranac Lake region. Lead for storm restoration for 9 years, 100-mile territory 17 substations. 2-3 years experience as a project manager, managing distribution cable make-ready projects and Live Line Bare Hand and Hot Stick Transmission Projects, Safety Director. 

His experience and education in medicine include being; Registered Nurse, Nationally Registered Paramedic, 22 years flying as a Flight Paramedic now Flight Nurse /Paramedic, Diploma in Mountain Medicine, Expedition Medicine, Crevasse Rescue Training on Mt Rainier, high angle and low angle medical rescue, Instructor Trainer for National Ski Patrol, currently a Ski Area gondola evacuation team member, PSIA Level 3 Instructor. Expeditions to Mt Kenya, Kilimanjaro, and Everest Base Camp. Ice Climber, Back Country Skier, Fixed Wing Pilot, Speaker, Trainer, Writer. Bill managed multiple different jobs and volunteer responsibilities, simultaneously. Bill has been an ACLS and PALS Instructor and has 20+ years as a Paramedic CIC (course instructor coordinator). He is trained in avalanche rescue and in Crevasse Rescue for Glacier travel. Currently promoting the 3Ps. Practice Primes Proficiency.

Core Belief: “When we are helping others become the best version of themselves, we are being the best version of ourselves.”

Life is an adventure!
Think Project Website: https://www.thinkprojectllc.com/about
Sim VS website:   http://www.simvs.com 

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Transcript

Disclaimer: 0:00

The views and opinions expressed in this program are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or positions of anyone at Innovative Sim Solutions or our sponsors.

Sim VS Ad: 0:12

Sim Vs is proud to sponsor this week's talk, supporting educators like Billy Martin. Making a difference is the Sim VS mission.

Intro: 0:28

Welcome to The Sim Cafe, a podcast produced by the team at Innovative Sim Solutions, edited by Shelly Houser. Join our host, Deb Tauber as she sits down with subject matter experts from across the globe to reimagine clinical education and the use of simulation. So pour yourself a cup of relaxation, sit back, tune in, and learn something new from The Sim Cafe.

Deb: 1:02

Welcome to another episode of The Sim Cafe. Today we are truly blessed to have William Martin as a guest. And William, would you like me to call you William or Bill, or,?

Billy: 1:17

I'm called many things. A lot of people call me Billy. Um,

Deb: 1:20

Okay. Okay. We'll go with Billy. You have what I consider a fascinating career. You've essentially had three different careers. One of'em is a certified utility,

Billy: 1:34

Um, safety professional, right?

Deb: 1:35

Safety professional. You've had ski patrol and flight nurse paramedic. And from those perspectives in the industry, I think that you have some fascinating information. Why don't you articulate to our guests about what your career has been like.

Billy: 1:57

All right. Thanks Deb. And, uh, I really appreciate the opportunity to talk to you, and I like what you're doing. It kind of started back in, uh, 1977 once I became the ski patrol, that it was only in the winter and we saw some pretty horrific trauma. So every year I, uh, you know, the, the first year I'm like, what am I ready for this? Then I became an E M T, and then in 98 or so, I went to Hudson Valley Community College, became a paramedic. Anyway, I was on Puerto Rico for Hurricane George with a whole bunch of linemen for a couple weeks. There was a big storm, and because I was the medical person, I got targeted that if there was something going on since there was a, a, a language gap, that they would use me. And they did. Uh, um, while I'm working a thousand dollars overtime, I'm commuting to Troy New York, uh, you know, 200 miles a day, three times a week to become a paramedic. And then our emergency squad separated from the fire company at the same time, after I became a paramedic in Warrensburg, New York, and we started Warrensburg Emergency Medical Services. So while I, while I was<laugh> being a paramedic, I be, I became the CEO and President of Warrensburg Emergency Medical Services. We had 19 members that separated from the fire company, and we needed to start from scratch. We even have a building. So I got a grant, and we, I'm going through all this process at the same time. I'm working as a lineman and then riding on the ambulance as a paramedic. I gave a lot of credit to this, to my daughter. I think I told you this. I read a book, uh, built to last, uh, was the book. It was a Sanford University study. I think it came out around 94. And it was a, it compared the 18 most visionary companies in the world with the 18 companies that weren't visionaries considered Visionary General Electric and Westinghouse back then Boeing and McDonald Douglas. But the chapter that struck me was the chapter, uh, entitled, the Wisdom of the and, and the Tyranny of the or. And I explained that to my kids. I said, isn't this interesting that these most visionary companies embraced the word and, and try not to use the word or because and means they're gonna try to solution and do both? So when I started thinking about ski patrolling, I had explained it to my son and my daughter. My daughter was a few years younger than my son. And I said, you know, I don't know. I said, I'm working a thousand hours overtime. I just went to school. No, no, this is be before I'm, I'm thinking about gonna school. I'm taking, thinking about becoming an E M T, uh, but ski patrol. And my daughter goes, daddy, and you can be a lineman and a ski patrol. And I kind of hearing it from her, I, so then I became a ski patrol and an E M T and an intermediate and a critical care, and a paramedic and a nurse and a certified utility safety professional. And I think that one word primed me to try things. I can always fail, but failing before I start isn't not audit and isn't not an option.

Deb: 4:49

No, you're absolutely right. I admire you for all those things and for reaching out to recognize, Hey, is there something something I need to be looking at? Right.

Billy: 4:59

I, and I did. Yeah.

Deb: 5:01

Okay. Bill, from your website, think Tank Project, you're working on influence and optimization of team dynamics. We know the team aspect is an important part of simulations. Can you give me some of your thoughts on how simulation affects team dynamics? So go ahead and talk a little bit about team dynamics and your thinking.

Billy: 5:27

So simulations are really cool. I mean, I remember going with Greg Vis for a number of years to go around with high fidelity mannequins to, um, fire departments and e m s to do training and tableting the data to see what kind of learning would occur. And it turned out be very successful, um, and prove that simulation works. Um, but the, the, the, it's easy to get the focus on the skill and, and the patient. And they're so cool, these new high fidelity mannequins and, and the simulations we can do. So what's interesting to me is, is the, it can easily, you can miss some of the most important part, and that's, that's how the team building occurs. It can, I mean, you've done this for years, so I'm talking to the choir, but you can easily hijacked right? Some, you get a, you get a, a, a high level doctor and some nurses that are maybe a little uncertain and an auto almost immediately becomes not a really safe space for them to be comfortable. And the doctor takes over. Um, and you have to figure out how to, how to navigate that. So in my space as a safety utility professional, I'm headed in, in February to, um, to Ohio. A young man, 22 years old, was electrocuted, uh, working for, that works for a co-op electrical co-op. He's a lineman and he was working on a crew. They were, it was like 25 below windshield. They had been putting wire up from the storms that came through. So this guy was a two year apprentice working for a contractor. So he has experience, they work with this stuff every day. So it's not like they don't know it can kill you. They're wearing rubber gloves a lot of the time. They go to put the wire up and he ends up climbing a pole that's energized and give, goes hand to hand electrical contact, and kills'em on the spot. So was it a lack of knowledge that did that, or was it the team dynamic in there, the way that they were interacting with each other that allowed them to skip a priority step and not only skip it, but not recognize that they skipped it, but somebody needs to create the connection before you move into anything of any consequence? The simulation is an opportunity for people to learn how to get into that space, to connect with each other. Uh, like I said to you, that the, the younger generation, you know, every, they've proven the IQ of every generation is higher than the one before it. And and I am very excited about this younger generation that's listening to this. All right. The, these guys hold more potential than anyone even imagines, but the thing they're not learning in school and something they could learn in simulation is how to connect.

Deb: 7:55

Yeah, I was gonna say actually, the Neurogeneration Tan Lee is gonna be speaking at the conference this week. So a lot of us are hopefully going to have the opportunity to hear her speak

Billy: 8:10

Well, absolutely. She's got so much depth in this field and we're scratching the surface. So I, I'd like to tell lineman, it's not often not a lack of knowledge that causes the problem. It's an inab inability or a barrier to apply the knowledge they have. The knowledge exists. But if, if you create a dynamic where it can't be released, if it's not safe to contribute, they won't. You know, if you're 25 years in an er, there were teams where I'm sure you felt comfortable, and there are other teams that were a little clunky because you had to be careful how you said and what you said to the doctor. Is that right?

Deb: 8:42

Oh, yeah. And there's still situations where I know if somebody wants my opinion, they'll give it to me.

Billy: 8:49

Well, exactly. So I, I think our next evolutionary step as a species is learning not to, to be defensive, not to watch TV and do exactly what's happening on TV every day with our governments and Canada and, and U s a, but not be defensive, but to be interested and curious. I don't have to like you, but I need to be interested or curious why somebody as bright as you might think differently than me, it doesn't affect me that you think that way, but I'm interested. Right. You know, if I'm gonna say two words, tell me what word comes to your mind?

Deb: 9:19

Oh, no,

Billy: 9:19

<laugh>. Um,

Deb: 9:20

Here we go again.

Billy: 9:22

Uh, finger licking,

Deb: 9:23

Good.

Billy: 9:24

All right. See any pictures in your head?

Deb: 9:26

Oh yeah. The Kentucky Fried Chicken

Billy: 9:28

<laugh>. So I can say two words. Finger licking, it can connect with your brain. You come up with good and you see pictures of Kentucky Fried Chicken. That's the level of neuro connectedness. We can, we can get to, we can get inside each other's head to produce amazing things, but only if we connect, if, if we are ruminating about whether it's safe, none of that happens. I just can't imagine if, if this crew had maybe the week before, the month before had a simulation, alright, what are we gonna do when this happens? And then they'd say, well, what, well, when somebody climbs a pole and gets electrocuted and they say, well, that's never happening to us. Right? Well, when you think something isn't gonna happen, you don't prepare for it. When you don't prepare for it, you don't plant that intuition. And that's the place in your brain for a space for that thing. So what if a month before they actually did a, a dry run mental simulation, all right, uh, alright, he up. If somebody, somebody just got contact, go, that would create a shared mental model in all of their heads. And in order to do that sim simulation, somebody has to speak up. Every time you run a simulation, you really, it's a social experiment on how that team dynamic is gonna work. But I think sometimes we get so focused on the result and the, the person running the simulation may have a predetermined, dur determined course of action they'd like to see.

Deb: 10:46

You know, I love the way that you said that. It's a social experiment, it's experiment. And that's exactly what it is. A lot of times we'll prep people for it. And I can actually speak to as being an accreditor, I've been on a site surveyor, I've probably been on 20 different accreditation visits. And after they have gone through the social experiment, when they actually come head to head with maybe mask, you know, like a casualty, like a gun shooting or some kind of a catastrophic event, teams and organizations that have been through the accreditation process will often point to that process. That social experiment is being part of the reason they were more successful in outcomes.

Billy: 11:36

Yeah. I mean, you just heard Bob Costas talk about it with the ham, Mr. Hamlin, the Buffalo Bills. He said they're on it in 10 seconds. He said it was obvious. They have simulated that response before. You know, we're not doing this in every industry, in every area. Why? Why do we need, need to make it our first dry run all the time when we can simulate not only the skill, but the dynamic that occurs to allow that skill to be at its highest level.

Deb: 12:01

Yes. And and that's part of the reason I was so interested, curious, and happy to have you as a guest because you can help connect some of these industries. Now I've heard some of your podcasts in the cusp industry. Did I say that right? Is that, is

Billy: 12:19

That what it's called? Yeah, yeah. It's, yeah. It was utilities, business media on influencing safety. I mean, we know why we need to do something. We know what we need to do, but unless we get to how right, it doesn't resonate with this group that we need to get it to. Right. So when we reson, when we get something that resonates with, with who, with our target, our target, um, and they experience what's happening, that's why simulation is so good. When they experience it, it touches them in a different place. It's not something you need to study for. It starts to change your brain structure.

Deb: 12:51

I think it was Tam Lee's book

Billy: 12:53

Could, I think there's a couple books. Yeah, I think she did. You're right. She did. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Tam Lee's, she talked about that. That's the nuts and bolts is that I think there's an opportunity in simulation to not only focus on the skillset, but to get really good at producing neural synchrony, the ability of our brains to actually connect at a higher level. Right. And they've proven storytelling does that. Uh, they, you, you can see it in an orchestra in the football game that is in a flow state in the athlete, right? When we can get to a flow state and where we're all of our, as Tam Lee would say, all of our, our wave, our EEGs are starting to look similar now. We we're, we're cooking with cumulative genius that's test and learn, but fails, learn to fail safely, command and control and leader follower is not, is not, uh, something that's really gonna work anymore in our current society. It just, command and control doesn't work. We need to engage people to get their opinions freely without them being feeling obstructed.

Deb: 13:57

Now specifically, how do you see, or what do you see or what do you think, or I'm curious about what we could do to improve that?

Billy: 14:10

Deb? I'm, I'm fine. I I, uh, that's a fair question because, because it's a hard one, right? I mean, what, you know, how do we change the world, right? I, I, uh,

Deb: 14:20

One starfish at a time.

Billy: 14:22

Yeah. Well, I love that story too. I, I mean, uh, yeah. Margaret Mead from the 1920s social anthropologist said, uh, never underestimate the power of a small group of people to change the world. It's the only thing that ever has. So whenever anybody asked me what I'm trying to do, I said, I'm just trying to change the world. Do you wanna join me? So, so, so you asked me a fair question. So let's say I'm about to start a simulation. So, yep. So if I was doing a simulation right now and everybody was coming in, I would have music playing as they're entering the room. Um, just because I try to gauge the group something that might be, you know, you can find people tapping their foot involuntarily, right? They're, it's just happening. So the first part of the simulation, I'm gonna have music playing. Second part, I'm gonna take Tam Lee's advice from now forward, I'm gonna have an opportunity. I say, look, I just, I just want you to look at each other because when something serious happens in this room, you're looking at the person that is going to save you. And they don't know that I'm having them get eye contact, but because I said it that way, they would. The next thing I'm gonna do is I'm gonna do what ato, ATO Gandi suggests in the checklist manifesto. Um, he did a study at Johns Hopkins, he's a surgeon. Well, he calls it the activation phenomenon, right? So he has everybody in the operating room introduce yourself, what is your role today? And what are some concerns you have? So if I was to introduce simulation, I would do that next and say, all right, what are your feelings about today? Do you have any concerns? Are your little self-conscious? And let's just go around and introduce yourselves and tell me what you're feeling because you want them to work together as a team, as best as possible. So often there's been a, a goal, and this is what we wanna do. We wanna prevent this cardiac arrest. And then either they live or they die, um, no matter what you do, but imagine if we could actually take advantage of how well this comes together. And then oppos, you didn't talk about the pre-brief and then a post brieff

Deb: 16:10

Debriefing.

Billy: 16:11

Yeah, and I about usually you do repeats, right? You do it again.

Deb: 16:15

It depends. It depends on the model that you, it depends on the amount of time you have. It depends on the learners, it depends on the amount of time you have. So there's some variables in there.

Billy: 16:24

So unions and linemen, workers, they don't trust management. So before I can even enter into a, a contract with these guys to do a mental simulation, I have to gain their trust. I don't tell them that cuz I was alignment for 20 years. Once I do, then I tell them it's, this is safe. And the first mental simulation we go through might only take five minutes. It's really clunky. The first one, I'm not here to tell you what to do. I'm only here to ask you questions to continue to move it forward. So like when the, he says, well we need somebody to call nine one. I said, great. Who we gotta run the ground controls to get the guy outta the bucket. Who's we, who's gonna do that? And me specific. So when we're done, we do a quick debrief, then we do it again. And I usually do it three times. And I usually by the third time, if they haven't done it, I use closed loop communication. Cuz in the electric industry, if you're gonna put a live jumper on 7,000 volts on one end, another guy's holding it going hot, going hot. And I say, let's do the same thing. If you say get the ad, I'm gonna say getting the ad right. Start cpr, starting cpr. You're familiar with that From medicine. The most exciting thing is they see how quickly they get better. They sequence so much better the second time. And by the third time I'm like, what'd you notice? Like, wow, we got better.

Deb: 17:34

Right?

Billy: 17:35

And it's really sticky. I can come back a month later and they're as good as the third time. So this is such a no-brainer for me that the electrical industry for one needs to adopt this. I mean, the crew that responded to that young 22 year old lineman is in gonna be, never forget this the rest of their lives and I hope they survive it. You saw it in the er,

Deb: 17:54

Right? Well, and I think you and I talked about it the first time I told you about a pool in our backyard that has like a 10 foot slide. And I said, you know, I just, I I can't stand that slide. I can't stand looking at it. It just makes me think about mechanism of injury. I've got these little grandkids, somebody's gonna fall down. And what did you say to me? You said to me the next day you said, I lost sleep over that. You gotta get rid of that slide.

Billy: 18:20

So this is the part that I'm really excited about. But unconsciously we understand more than we give ourselves credit for. If we understand how much we know, we would listen to ourselves more. So I tell lineman we need triggers. When you told me that it was a trigger for me because I heard you say you are the smartest person, Deb, I know in your house, right? You know everything about your pool there is to know, you know everything about your house. And when you tell me I'm so worried about the mechanism of injury of that slide, I woke up in the middle of the night, I'm like, I gotta talk to her. She needs to replace the slide because,,,

Deb: 18:53

She needs to get rid Of that slide.

Billy: 18:53

B ecause what'll happen, your worst fear will come true. Like for example, I'm imagining in my mind for that 22 year old and he says, i s i t d ead? A nd, a nd y eah, looks like it's open, looks like it's open, looks like isn't enough. I think might be, probably should be for me. A re all red flag words, those words mean we don't know. And if there's a consequence tied to it that should trigger you. And I tell them to do this. I said, I just want you to point and laugh when you h ear, I think might be, should be probably j ust g o, ha, ha that's one of those words. But that trigger you've slowed down enough to consider. Now you're left with a crossroad. Do I ruminate about it all day? Do I go back in t he house and shut it off? Right? That's all you need. If we can help people with triggers, it c an work in simulation, you can come up with triggers. You probably know what they are already cuz you've done so many, there's certain triggers you'll hear over and over again th at t rigger that we need to look down a different path.

Deb: 19:48

Right? No, I've slowed down. We have the pool company coming in in the spring and uh, to the probable dismay of many family and friends, we will not<laugh> have a 10 foot slide many times.

Billy: 19:59

W ell, well, I mean, I I give you credit because once you wake up to that voice in your head, right? We talked about the voice in your head, but u h,

Deb: 20:07

Let's do it.

Billy: 20:08

So I begin to think that everybody thinks the way I think and now that I know they don't, I try to get us on the same page. So I think I did this with you. I'll just do this, say simulation. Say the word

Deb: 20:18

Simulation

Billy: 20:19

Now say it in your head so I can't hear it.

Deb: 20:22

Okay.

Billy: 20:22

Did you say it?

Deb: 20:24

Yeah.

Billy: 20:25

Could you, could you hear it?

Deb: 20:26

Oh yeah.

Billy: 20:27

So, you know, you said something but without making any noise and you also, without hearing it, without your ears. So who said that?

Deb: 20:35

Well, you said to say it in my head. So<laugh>. Yeah,

Billy: 20:38

But who? But you heard the word simulation in your head.<laugh>. Who said it?

Deb: 20:42

I don't know the,

Billy: 20:43

It was you<laugh>, right? We have a physical sense of our brain and you can have Buddhist and physicists argue over this, but I'm gonna tell you that is your mind. I d I'm introducing you to your mind. Your mind is that voice in your head that you can control when we can control what our mind says. So we need to listen because that voice sees more than our physical body does. 11 million bits of information is processed behind the veil of your consciousness, only your 40 or 50 in your consciousness. So when that thought comes to your mind without your permission, it comes from everything you've ever seen. And that's made some type of connection in that 11 million bits. And when it comes from that other voice, we need to listen. Once we start to listen to that voice in our head, we start to realize I can't hear the voice in other people's head.

Deb: 21:33

No, I, I totally agree. In fact, there's times that I'll be with people and I'll say, you know, I don't know what you're thinking. I'm not a mind reader. I'm curious about what you think and what you feel so that we can get on the same page.

Billy: 21:45

That's awesome. So you lead good simulations because that's the ultimate of connecting is being open and curious and interested as to what's going on in that person's head. You, you know, from being in the er, a doctor's come into a serious patient and he runs the show and you're waiting for him to tell you what to do next. And then another doctor in and say, what is it you're thinking? That doctor is tapping into a much wider bandwidth of information than the other.

Deb: 22:12

This has really been wonderful. I'm gonna ask you one more question. Okay? Uh, because now after this interview, I'm just gonna be able to call you and talk about all these mind blowing things.<laugh>, if you had one thing that you would like our listeners to know, something that you learned over time in your career, what would that be? Um,

Billy: 22:34

That's a hard question. Narrowing things down to one. So I think that the one thing that I've learned is that, but our bandwidth is built on everything. So everyone has value. Can we do the hamburger bandwidth? Have we done that before?

Deb: 22:51

I I don't remember doing that,

Billy: 22:53

So, so I don't know. Do you eat red meat, Deb?

Deb: 22:56

Yeah.

Billy: 22:57

Do do you like hamburgers?

Deb: 22:58

Yeah.

Billy: 22:59

You ever had a really good hamburger? I mean, super good hamburger. Yep. How'd you know? It was good.

Deb: 23:05

Well, this is gonna sound really silly. My favorite hamburger is McDonald's cheeseburger and anybody who knows me knows that that's my favorite, my favorite

Billy: 23:15

Meal. Why? What makes it your favorite?

Deb: 23:17

Because it reminds me of all the time I spent in the car with my kids going to swim meets and baseball games and it was, it was something we survived on was, so that's,

Billy: 23:28

So that's cool. So, so it's a memory. So the way your subconscious actually works and that's un nobody's ever said that to me before. That's really interesting cuz it's a memory that makes a good, most people say it's the way it tastes, you know, there's, it's just the right mixture of, you know, the right juiciness and their, and the taste. And what I tell them them is that's interesting. But the reality is, the way you know it, it's a good one is because you've had a bad one and, and your brain without any cognitive load, automatically lists it and ranks it with one bite as soon as you bite it, oh, this is really good. Not as good as Joe's, but 10 times better than those other pieces of crop. But I still like McDonald's better. Right. Well,

Deb: 24:06

And here's the thing, okay, you're gonna have a lot of people out there going tabber, that's your favorite thing, A McDonald's cheeseburger,<laugh>. But I can tell you that no matter where I go, no matter what state, no matter what country, that cheeseburger is gonna taste the same. So I'm gonna be I know. So it's consistent. Yep.

Billy: 24:23

So the, the fact that your brain can list and rank all of the hamburgers in an instant means you decided something is good based on all of the hamburgers, not just the good ones. Ideas are the same. So you ask me the one thing, the one thing that really your hamburger bandwidth is the same with ideas. Uh, I don't have to like your idea, but every idea I listen to increases my bandwidth and goes into my subconscious to list and rank with all the other ideas. And sometimes they combine, I come out with a different product that's not connected to those two. But if, if you just watch television with the Republicans than the Democrats, just for a minute you'll watch divisiveness and dismissiveness and listening to respond, not listening to understand. So the one thing, somebody that annoys the hell outta me, it's hard for me to listen to them and not be annoyed. I'm learning to be interested and curious and understand because I know whatever they're telling me is gonna increase my hamburger bandwidth. And I think that's the one thing that's really changed my perspective is to be open and curio and, and I don't have to be defensive. I don't have to like it. And I can tell people, you know, I don't really like what you're talking about. Like, I, I had a person who has decided that nobody died from covid, they died from the vaccines. And I, I'm okay with that and used to bug me. I'm the kind of guy that's fairly open and I can be convinced, convince me what is it that's killing all these people? Is it the vaccine? Well, it's really old age. Okay, I, I'll go with that comorbidity. Absolutely. What else? Cuz the c d C says 400,000 people died of unexpected deaths more than 2019 in 2020. And then they might say, well I don't trust the cdc. And then I could say, you know, I really respect and appreciate your point of view, but I can't go further cuz I can't control who you trust and who you don't trust. You know? Uh, so if, if you don't trust that number to, I don't know how you're gonna convince me, do you have another way? And usually they don't. But then I, at the end, I have fun with it. I say, look, I really appreciate this in exchange, but listen, do you shop in a grocery store? And they'll say, well yeah. I say, well you probably shouldn't do that anymore. And they say, why? So cuz the Center for Disease Control controls the e coli they find on lettuce. So I if you don't tr And then they usually say, well, there's different levels of trust. I said, okay. I said, now you understand this is your imagined reality and you can create your own levels of trust however you want. It doesn't mean that I'm gonna sync with that. You know what I mean? Yep. But that's a whole different discussion. I've gotten so much better. I had a COO one day tell me whether you're either in or you're out. And normally I would get defensive and I said, you know, I'm really glad you're comfortable enough to tell me that because that means there's a level of comfort between us. Then I had a little discussion with him about it and I said, why don't you take this discussion up the chain to the c e o and come back to me? And depending on this answer will depend if I'm in or I'm out. How's that? I didn't change my tone. It's like practicing an instrument. If I were to tell anybody anything, learn how not to defend yourself. Trade it for interest and curiosity and let's simulate that. Let's simulate what that looks like. And you've watched it, right? You've watched somebody come up with an idea and a simulation. Oh, that's stupid. We're not doing that. Have you seen that?

Deb: 27:34

Oh yeah. Yeah.

Billy: 27:35

Oh yeah. We have to work on that. Probably didn't talk too much. No,

Deb: 27:39

This has been great. Great. All right, Billy, this has been great and I appreciate you so much. I wanna thank you. Hopefully next year you'll be at IMSH and with that happy simulating.

Billy: 27:55

All right. Thank you.

Deb: 27:56

Thank you.

Sim VS tag: 27:57

We'd like to thank Sim VS for sponsoring this wonderful interview. The new Sim VS Nucleus system lets programs create an immersive bedside simulation space like no other. Join us at IMSH to learn more.

Outro: 28:20

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