The Sim Cafe~ Interview with Matthew Chartnetski

Matthew Charnetski, MSMS, NRP, CHSOS, CHSE is the Director of Simulation-Based Education and Research for Dartmouth Health (DH) in Lebanon, NH. His winding path took him around the world several times between Iowa, Africa, Antarctica, Kazakhstan, Arkansas, New Hampshire and almost every bit in between. Matthew’s simulation career has been largely academic focused primarily in medical education prior to arriving at DH in 2019.

He is a graduate of the Master’s in Medical and Healthcare Simulation Program at Drexel University and is actively pursuing his PhD in Health Professions Education at Maastricht University in Maastricht, Netherlands. Matthew is also adjunct faculty in the Massachusetts General Hospital Institute of Health Professions Master’s in Health Professions Education Program in the Simulation Operations Track. 

Matthew is involved extensively with The Society for Simulation in Healthcare and The International Nursing Association for Clinical Simulation and Learning. For SSH, Matthew is Chair of the Hospital-Based Simulation Programs Section and a member of the Internal Relations Committee and Chair of the Renewal Technology Subcommittee. He serves as a member of the Diversity Equity and Inclusion Task Force and serves as a Director-At-Large for the SSH Board of Directors where he is board liaison to the Education Committee. Matthew is a member of the Standards Committee for INACSL and serves as the Chair of the Operations Standard Subcommittee. He is currently acting as a co-planning chair for SimGHOSTS planning this falls S3 conference in Singapore.

His recent research interests largely focus on cultural considerations in and around healthcare simulation.  His PhD work surrounds the role that culture plays in the adaptation and transfer of simulation curricula in transborder education partnerships. Matthew has contributed book chapters on simulation methodologies, moving simulation centers, and cultural considerations in simulation.  His peer-reviewed work has largely been in standards of best practice in simulation, cultural considerations/diversity issues related to simulation, and as a member of the SSH 2023 Distance Simulation Summit.

LinkedIN:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/charnetski/

SimGHOSTS:  https://simghosts.org/page/Matt_Charnetski 

SSH: https://simconnect.ssih.org/network/members/profile?UserKey=e417b989-5274-415d-b66f-f88063455397

Innovative SimSolutions.
Your turnkey solution provider for medical simulation programs, sim centers & faculty design.

Transcript

SimGHOSTS AD: 0:00

This podcast is being sponsored by Sim GHOSTS, the gathering of healthcare simulation technology specialists. If you take your healthcare simulation technology, seriously, join SimGHOSTS. A membership provides you access to premium resources, such as guides, templates, and resources to save you time and effort while maintaining best practices. A membership includes a learning hub with online courses, including digital badges and over 300 hours of video tutorials and presentations from our global events event and membership discounts for ASPI, NACSIL, and SSH, a member only forum with special interest groups, a career center that provides resources to help prepare you for the next step in your career and a personal professional development portfolio to take your career to the next level, connect with the community and love the work. Even more, learn more by visiting our website and connect with us via Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn details in the show notes.

Intro: 1:11

Welcome to The Sim Cafe, a podcast produced by the team at Innovative Simsolutions, edited by Shelly Houser. Join our host Deb Tauber as she sits down with subject matter experts from across the globe to reimagine clinical education and the use of simulation. So pour yourself a cup of relaxation, sit back, tune in and learn something new from The Sim Cafe.

Deb: 1:44

Welcome to another episode of The Sim Cafe. Today, we're blessed to have Matthew Charnetski and can I call you, uh, would you like to be called Matt or Matthew?

Matt: 1:55

Matt is perfect.

Deb: 1:57

Okay. Thanks. Why don't you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself. I've heard so many amazing things about you from, from other people, and thank you for being on this episode of The Sim Cafe.

Matt: 2:09

I really appreciate you interviewing me and I think this is something I've heard a lot about as well, and I'm super excited to talk with you today. As far as me right now, I am the director of simulation based education and research at Dartmouth health right here on the border of New Hampshire and Vermont. I also work per diem as a paramedic in the emergency department there. Uh, so a little bit of a foot in both sides of it all. Uh, and then I spend a lot of the rest of my time working on my PhD in health professions, education, and, uh, trying to fill in the gaps of my free time with a little bit of a personal life, and then doing a lot of work with the society for simulation in healthcare, NACSIL, SimGHOSTS, kind of whoever will have me and, and trying to keep pushing our field forward.

Deb: 2:57

Thank you so much for all your contributions. So next time I'll have you on as a guest, I'm gonna need to say, would you like me to call you Dr. Charnetski or?(Laugh)

Matt: 3:06

Hopefully we'll get that wrapped up pretty quickly here.

Deb: 3:09

All right. So why don't you go ahead and share your story of your journey into simulation?

Matt: 3:15

I think everybody has a strange path into sim. I I've met very few people that there's a linear way in, or just a really clear sort of seminal moment where it happens. And when I graduated from college, I didn't, I didn't know what I wanted to be when I grew up. And, and at the time simulation, wasn't something that was widely enough known that, you know, it would be something that you would look towards. And I, I mean, I was so not sure what I wanted to do that grew up in a small town in Iowa, moved four blocks to go to college. And then when I graduated, I immediately moved to Antarctica and I spent the better part of seven years there. And while I was there, I worked in the lab stockroom for a while. They could sort of care less that I had a degree in biology. They were really more excited that I knew how to drive a forklift and a snowplow. And then I moved into it because I had been a, a computer kid most of my life. And so I worked with a scientist to do all of their technical stuff and, and just kind of whatever they showed up with and needed for their short field seasons down there. Uh, I got a chance to work with a small team on making sure that that worked didn't work successfully. And then while I did that, I also was on the search and rescue team, the joint Antarctic search and rescue team while I was there, which is a volunteer team, pretty lightweight medicine, heavier on the rescue side of things and the, the search side of things. But through that, I became a wilderness first responder and then a wilderness EMT and EMT basic essentially, and really cut my teeth on what austere medicine might be like. And then my last season on the ice, I worked in field safety training, which at the time I didn't understand that basically everything we did was simulation because we just called it scenario based training, right? Like you do an EMS and then we would do the same thing with, oh, a storm has blown in, put this bucket on your head and walk around and try and find each other, you know, whatever it happened to be<laugh>. So I, I mean, I had no idea, right? I just, I was just kind of moving forward through this, this very strange group of people that were my people 100%, you know, I was lucky to find a community as soon as I left college and really spent 52 months over seven, seven years on the ice, which was fabulous best way I could have spent my twenties. And while I did that, what I kept telling myself, which was not probably the total honest truth was that I was trying to decide between going to medical school or going to public health grad school and, you know, looking at, do I want to do research? Do I wanna do direct patient care? What does that look like? And when I moved back to the, the us, I started kind of thinking in that same vein, but I, I still wasn't sure exactly how to make it happen. So I picked up jobs like you do. And I, I worked at the apple store and I worked, uh, as an EMT basic in my hometown. So I had a little bit of a handle on the EMT, basic level of medicine. And I got to learn then all the logistics and all that kind of stuff. And it was, it was a lot of fun, but I knew I wanted more. And at that point, I actually hadn't even considered the possibility of paramedic as a, a career path at all. But working with paramedics, working in rural medicine, I started to think, oh, this is interesting. And maybe it's forever. Maybe it's not, but it seems like an interesting next step. And I wanted to do it, but I couldn't afford it. And that happened to be in a time that, that I don't know that everybody's familiar with, but what was called meaningful use when electronic medical records were brand new and there was lots of money in it. And so in an effort to pay for paramedic school, I talked my way into a couple of different it positions at hospitals to do electronic medical records implementation. So I learned a lot about all of that. I worked more on it stuff. So that was, you know, this building, this whole skill set related to that, and then finished paramedic school and promptly left it together to become a full-time paramedic. And I worked as paramedics do I worked for, you know, four different services at the same time. So one was fully hospital based. Uh, one was very rural 9 1, 1, 1 was suburban 9 1, 1 and hospital based. And you know, all these things, specialty care, transport, all of that. So I got this really great breadth of experience and, and I loved it. And as soon as I could go full time, I, I went full time working for the city of west Des Moines and Iowa. So I, and I looked, it was such an interesting time and, and wonderful people to work with. And, and it always resonated with me that whole, like, be the best part of the worst day of their lives kind of thing and all that. And I loved it, but it's also not a thing I was probably destined to do long term. So I made it five total years working on an ambulance somewhere and loved it, but also recognized that I was, I was kind of falling apart at the seams and was fortunate enough that a friend of mine started looking around to see what might be possible. Um, and you know, what, what do paramedics do after their P and nobody had an answer to that, but fortunately, some really wonderful and, and arguably visionary people had just taken over the simulation center, which is an established simulation center at Des Moines university. And they had put out a new job description for a Sim Specialist. And in that job description at, at the time, you know, I still don't know what simulation is, but they put out this job description and it literally may have been bullet point by bullet point just saying my name over and over and over again. And, and specifically it said looking for someone with five years of it experience with healthcare, it being preferred and five years of patient care experience with paramedics being preferred. And I thought there's going to be three of us in the upper Midwest. Even if I don't like, or don't get this job, we can still be friends. I should know who these people are. And so I sent in my application now, years later, I found out they only invited me in because they thought I was lying. They, they couldn't believe that anybody would show up with every bullet point checked on this thing. And I went in and it was maybe five minutes into what was supposed to be a 30 minute interview that I thought, this is what I want to do with the rest of my life. I, this is the weirdest, the coolest job I've ever seen it combined my paramedic background, my it background, my love of tech. Uh, I love doing logistics stuff and things like that, and helped me move into education, which I was raised by a teacher. And this was, you know, this meaningful thing for me. And I just thought, this is incredible. Well, four and a half hours into my 30 minute interview, I was cemented. And I just thought, oh my gosh, if they don't hire me, I'll be crushed. I don't know what I'll do. And thank goodness they hired me the next morning. And I, I started a few weeks later and I was just sold. And, and that was the beginning of what has been an absolutely incredible coming up on maybe eight years now, nine years. And it has, it has been stupendous and every year has been different and just like all over the place. It's been fabulous.

Deb: 10:08

Amazing, amazing. in Antarctica? I mean, that's cool with the capital C

Matt: 10:15

<laugh>

Deb: 10:16

Yeah. Thanks for sharing. That's a great story. The next question I'm gonna ask is please share your favorite or most impactful simulation story with our guests.

Matt: 10:28

You know, I think there have been many I, you know, and I, I think about the ones where you really have that moment with a learner or with a group of learners where they really seem to put something together, or you have these things. And, and there have been a lot and particularly a lot surrounding simulation, you know, maybe not specifically in sim, but the one that probably resulted in some of the most significant impact on my career. And on me personally, I was working in a sim center in Kazakhstan and helping set that up. And we were implementing a curriculum that was designed in the United States. That's a super robust, well developed curriculum, but we were also kind of trying out some things and, and seeing how other things fit. And I can tell you that the, these students that I was working with there, some of the most brilliant, fascinating people I've ever met. And if you ever get the chance to interact with someone where English is their sixth or seventh language, just understanding that their brain works in different ways than mine ever will. And just really wild stuff. I think deep in my heart, I am probably an anthropologist of some sort or another. Um, but so in this SIM we were doing, you know, is a kind of a standard second year medical school sim, which was an ACS scenario, acute coronary syndrome scenario. And it was supposed to just be about recognition, right? See this patient 59 year old male with chest pain, left sided, arm weakness and pain, everything, right. Everything just down the list. And we went in and the students came in and they nailed it. Right. They got IV they, they asked every right question. They found everything that was there. And I thought, oh, wow, this, this really wasn't that challenging for them, but we'll see what they do next. You know, we haven't, we haven't taught them a lot in terms of the treatment or anything like that. So I don't know exactly what it's going to look like, but we'll let'em run with it and see, see what happens. And then we can debrief it and talk about it. And so they asked all the questions, they gathered all the information. They had clearly arrived at the correct diagnosis. And then they just walked out of the room. And I thought, not accustomed to this, you know, usually usually we're having to, to ask them to leave the room, right? Tell them the sim is over. And so we go out to debrief and, and as we're talking about it, I had this fabulous moment with some students that I'm still very close with, who I just, it wouldn't have even occurred to me. And it was this concept of cultural medicine where I said, you guys left the room. What, what were you thinking in that moment? And they said, well, we needed to, to kind of regroup. And we needed to think about what this person's life was going to be like, they're quite old. They probably have a lot of comorbidities. And I thought I, 59 shouldn't be that old. I don't my goodness. Like, what does this mean? And so as we went down the path, thinking about it and, and talking about it, I realized that in Kazakhstan, at that time, the average life expectancy for a man was 62 years. This person was basically at the end of their life, no matter what. And so then it was this cultural conversation of how do we handle the end of life? And this was, you know, this was way outside of what the SIM was supposed to be. This was way outside of the curriculum that, that I think we were really dealing with. But we had this interesting conversation where they said, you know, in Kazakhstan, we often don't deliver bad news. If someone has a terminal diagnosis, we might work with their family to make sure they're comfortable, but we don't want them to worry about it. And so we just won't talk about it. And that was kind of what kicked off my interest in cultural considerations in sim, and then my PhD project sort of looking at how cultural considerations might affect simulation curriculum design and what we need to be thinking about in that realm. And then for me personally, it really put me into this position of as a beacon of privilege, right? A white male Midwestern, middle income, you know, I, all of the things traveling to this situation and recognizing, oh my, my way, isn't the right way. And what they're talking about, isn't right or wrong. It's just different. And maybe it's even better. I don't know. But being able to have those conversations and explore that stuff through simulation to better understand how we approach all of these really difficult situations and difficult problems in medicine was just absolutely eye opening and, and totally blew my

Deb: 14:43

Mind. Thank you for sharing that story. It's really interesting because yesterday I had an interview with the SIM geeks, William and David, and we talked about end of life, hospice, terminal, diagnosis, and simulation. So it'll kind of pair in nicely with your amazing simulation story, cuz you stated very eloquently. We don't have cultural considerations at times. I I'm so glad that I know that you do this cuz I, um, my work with society sometimes has to do with cultural considerations.

Matt: 15:14

Yeah.

Deb: 15:15

Where do you see the future of simulation going? This is another question I like to ask my guests, Matt.

Matt: 15:21

I, I mean, I think that's such an interesting question and it really runs the gamut because it depends on what part of simulation you're looking at. I, you know, I, I really think that AR and VR are here to stay. They're really expanding in the technological side of things as we see those grow and as we see more haptic input from them and that kind of thing, I really think we'll see a shift in the technology side to task trainers in AR and VR, um, more than mannequins and that sort of thing, which is, is really interesting to me. Um, partially because I think the technology is neat, but also because I think that really improves our worldwide and our rural access to simulation, which is great. Um, it changes the cost models. It changes the availability, it changes the transport, it changes the space. You need everything about it changes as we move in that direction. Um, and those are all topics near and dear to my heart. I also think we're seeing simulation, uh, really growing and, and it's, it's getting such a foothold and getting so much more attention now we're seeing it move outside of healthcare and aviation, which are probably two of the biggest proponents, uh, or, or maybe in healthcare specifically, we're seeing it move out of direct patient care. And now it's moving into management leadership, it's moving into business conversations and, and kind of helping people to grow in all of the skills. We expect people in anything even adjacent to healthcare to work on. And I, I think that's a really exciting place to be. And it provides us with such interesting opportunities to solve problems that manifests at the bedside or at the direct care provider level, but problems that come out of all of these other adjacent things. And I, I think specifically of, you know, mid-level management training, uh, patient care management and leadership training and that kind of thing, really just a fantastic opportunity for our field to, to stretch its legs.

Deb: 17:20

No, I, I agree. I think if you had an opportunity to listen to Dr. Dan Weiberg, he talks about how he was in the working in the air and the director comes down and says, Hey, we are, we're having a budget crisis when everyone to stop using gauze.

Matt: 17:36

Yeah.

Deb: 17:37

I mean to talk about starting a fire, right?

Matt: 17:41

Seriously. I mean, and it's, it's the time we live in right now is just wild for all those kinds of things.

Deb: 17:49

Can you share with their listeners where you were and what you did during the COVID pandemic and some lessons that you learned, and I think it's kind of critical of what I'm really interested in is you working you're in the field. You're not just from simulation standpoint, this is what we did.

Matt: 18:06

Yeah. I was really lucky and, and my organization was very lucky in a lot of front. So up here in New Hampshire, we're pretty isolated. Uh, I often joked that those of us up here in Northern new England, when they said we need to socially distance by six feet, most of us thought, why do we have to get so close? You know, and it it's population density wise. We have an advantage and all those sorts of things. So COVID affected us very differently, but as the kind of primary healthcare organization in the immediate area, and we're a very large hospital, but we serve a very rural space. We didn't have the same volume that, that some of our contemporaries, right. You know, we're sitting up here a couple of hours from Boston, a few hours from New York and we're watching all of this unfold and, and we didn't have that. But when I moved here, I moved here in December of 2019 and things were calm. Things were how they used to be. And we had no idea that in a couple of months, everything was going to completely turn around. And I remember I was trying to complete a training, like it just a, an onboarding training that I needed to do when the chief quality officer came in and he pulled me out of the training and he said, Hey, look, I think this thing is going to get really bad. We need to figure out how to train 6,000 direct patient care employees in the next three to four weeks on all this new PPE and everything we need to do. I think you guys should be involved in this. I had never met this man before. I didn't know anything about him. And I just thought, okay, it seems like a thing we could do. I had no idea what we were going into. And so my team a little bit differently than a lot of sim centers, I think a lot of SIM centers saw their staff being repurposed out into patient care or out throughout the hospital. We didn't get repurposed, but we got tasked. And so we went from, I think the first week or two, when things kind of shut down, uh, a lot of my operational staff didn't have a lot to do. It was maybe a week or two. And then all of a sudden we were pretty consistently working 15 hour days. And we were doing all this training for that. We were tied really closely with the quality department and the value Institute and, and a lot of those departments to look at how do we do these things? What's our process for doing these things without experimenting on people in the hospital, how do we up skill nursing staff so that they are prepared to do more critical care tasks and that kind of thing. And, and just building all of that. And it, it was fabulous. I, I mean, it was really interesting. We had canceled all of our normal trainings because we couldn't bring people together and nobody had time, you know, no, no one was able to be like, oh yeah, no problem. We can send half our nurses down to do this training. So all of that got canceled. Our plate got basically cleared where we were only doing onboarding and then things related to COVID. It was fantastic. It had shown a whole new light on the SIM center and what we could do, my staff was fabulous and really rose to that challenge and, and really exceeded all of our expectations in a million different ways. And it was fantastic at the time I wasn't working clinically. I had kind of thought, well, we'll, we'll see what happens. I'm new here. I really wanna focus on this. This is where my career has moved. I do some things administratively with sim, but nothing really, you know, operationally. And then about a year in, it took a little while, but once things started calming down for us on the SIM side, I started poking around a little bit and saying, Hey, you know, now we're through the real first wave. Maybe even the second wave of this crisis. Now the, the wave we're facing is the staffing problem. And you know, all this, is this something that would be valuable if I, you know, I still have an active license. I feel really strongly that anybody with a license should be helping out, you know, that's, we are a community. I, I like to serve my community. I also feel like as a leader in this institution, I should, I should be contributing. What can I do? And the<laugh> the, the woman who is over the emergency department, who is lovely, you know, she and I had worked on things in the past and, you know, it was normal administrative stuff. I send an email five days later, maybe I would hear same thing on her side, you know, just normal stuff. I'm fairly certain. I sent that email and the timestamp on her response to me, the minute hadn't even turned over. I mean, it was just that quickly that she wrote back and just said, yes, absolutely whatever you wanna do, let us know. We'll figure out what we need to do to onboard you. And, and we'll get you started as soon as we can. And it was maybe, you know, it took us a month or so to kind of navigate some of the red tape of the hospital and figure it out because we hadn't ever done this before. And then I started picking up shifts in the ed. And, and then at that point for me, I mean, it was great because I really enjoy that work, but maybe even more importantly, it was so valuable to really start getting the lived experience of the people we were training. So, I mean, we have people on my team who still engage in patient care as well. And, and so they had that too. But for me, even just to make director decisions, to make administrative choices, or to be able to push back on my team and say, I totally understand why you're struggling with X, Y, or Z. We just have to understand that right now that whole department is completely underwater that person. In addition to, you know, we're asking them an administrative, a question that is so far away from anything immediate and pressing in their life right now. I think we just wait on that. Let's just put that aside. So it was really valuable and, and really connected me back to the purpose of what we do. You know, that, that why got reintroduced into my life.

Deb: 23:41

Excellent. Alaina Harrington also talks about connecting your purpose, but I think, you know, it's all about what, what is our purpose? Can you share with our listeners the biggest thing you'd like them to know something that you learned, and it changed the way that you practice like a personal aha moment

Matt: 24:00

Professionally and, and kind of in the sim range of things. One of the biggest things that I learned is that this field is changing so quickly and this field is truly becoming such its own body of knowledge and its own skill set that we're getting to a point where it's unrealistic, that we can say, oh, you nurse, you, doctor you, whatever. We're going to add this responsibility onto what you already do, or we're going to immediately pivot you into this thing, no additional training, just figure it out, what I think I've observed and what my experience has been is the more we're willing to keep our heads up and our eyes clear. And just looking at all the things that are happening and keep gathering those little bits that ball of lint. One of my paramedic preceptors told me, keep collecting all those little experiences and those little observations and those little skills so that we can, when we're called upon, pull out that ball of lint and have access to all of those things, to be able to do what's next with as fast as SIM is developing, there are so many things that if I reflect on them in the moment, I thought were a throwaway experience or just a chance encounter that didn't really matter that all of a sudden five years later became one of the most important things that I needed to know or be ready to do. And, and with the COVID thing, I, I think the example being us, having the ability to pivot from a largely educational model into this quality improvement model that we needed to be ready to go for, and my team did a fabulous job. I think a lot of people on my team were ready to pivot in that way, but a lot of folks I interacted with in the SIM industry and in the patient care industry, weren't ready to pivot that way. They weren't ready to think about SIM as the place to make people safer. And so being ready to do that and being ready to contextualize everything else, you've learned everything you've been through. You know, we, we talk about adult learning theory and how people bring experience their experience to whatever they're doing, right. That that's real. And, and in SIM maybe more so than a lot of other professional fields, I think we have the opportunity to bring some of the strangest, most esoteric, most idiosyncratic parts of our lives to bear with great effect in our professional lives, the things we can carry forward, the knowledge, the perspective that we can bring to someone trying to create a new experience or a new assessment or a new SIM of whatever sort is enormous. And in the last year and a half or two years, even I would say I've seen that unfold exponentially with my team, with the strangest thing that they just say, oh yeah, I know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And that's a thing that could help us here or in this other field, this is what we do. And all of a sudden it's the most relevant thing we could have imagined. So I think continuing to just look at what's in front of you and understand how you can bring other things from your life, other experiences to bear on that will only help grow at every one of us.

Deb: 27:19

Thank you for that. That's a beautiful perspective you're taking off your blinders and being open to the experience and taking from it what you can.

Matt: 27:30

Yeah, absolutely. I think the other concrete thing I would offer would be volunteer early and often this is kind of like it was in the nineties, you know, if you wanted to get into it, you didn't go to college, you just did a bunch of stuff. And then all of a sudden you had this portfolio, I think getting involved with all of the organizations that are out there, getting involved with your hospital and some of the other things they do, or your university, and some of the other things they do, it just opens up so many things. And I mean, you and I would've likely not met for another year beyond this. Had we not met at conferences? Had we not crossed paths in committees and, and things like that, this community is so small that that can make all the difference in the trajectory your career gets to take. So I, I just think that's really important.

Deb: 28:14

Thanks. So Matt, if our guests wanna get ahold of you, how would they get ahold of you?

Matt: 28:20

That's a faulous question. I, it's tough. I'm a little hard to nail down. I am floating around a lot. I seem to be putting roots down in New Hampshire and I, I landed here and I thought, oh my gosh, this is the place I was supposed to be all along. But, you know, I, people can feel free to email me certainly. And I think we'll post my email address on here. Facebook, I pay pretty close attention to the Facebook groups and things that are out there SSH through SIM connect is a great way to get a hold of me and kind of any of those LinkedIn also great any of those places. I'm pretty connected to my stuff. Most of the time, I am not always great at responding, but I will get back to you eventually. And I love to help out however I can. So anybody who wants to please, you know, feel free to reach out and hopefully, hopefully we did just, uh, the election announcement just came out. So for any of you listening, who are SSH members, I am happening to run for secretary, the board of directors. So that would be a great place to find me hopefully as well, if all things go to plan.

Deb: 29:16

Thank you. Thank you so much for this time. Anything else you wanna share with our listeners?

Matt: 29:21

I don't think so. I, I, you know, this podcast is so great and I just appreciate the breadth of people that you've pulled together, uh, to talk about and hearing their stories and what that does for our community is so great. So thank you again for having me on here.

Deb: 29:34

Oh, my pleasure. I've been truly blessed to have people have been guests and c ontinue to be guests and future guests.

Matt: 29:42

It's literally like not to toot my own horn, but I I'm honored to be amongst what I perceive to be almost the who's who of simulation. I mean, you've really t he, the list is, is long e nd storied, for sure.

Deb: 29:55

Thanks. All right. Well with that happy simulating!

SimGHOSTS tag: 30:00

SimGHOSTS is the world's only organization dedicated solely to supporting those who operate healthcare simulation technology. If you wanna be part of a healthcare culture where people are empowered to use simulation technology to improve learner and patient outcomes, join SimGHOSTS today. Learn more by visiting our website and connect with us via Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn details in the show notes.

Outro: 30:30

Thanks for joining us here at The Sim Cafe. We hope you enjoyed connect with us at www.innovativesimsolutions.com and be sure to hit that like and subscribe button. So you never miss an episode of The Sim Cafe.