The Sim Cafe~ An Interview with Bradley Chesham

Bundle of Rays was established by Bradley Chesham.
The concept of training healthcare professionals came from working as a front-line nurse in busy hospitals in Australia and the UK, plus serving in Afghanistan and Iraq as a battlefield nurse which really highlighted the necessity for easy-to-understand solutions. The motivation for developing Bundle of Rays was to empower health professionals to be better skilled and qualified to promote timely, informed decisions about patient care. The Bundle of Rays platform immerses health professionals in an educational experience through the implementation of VR and AR. The business model initially focused on delivering face-to-face healthcare training and this evolved through the combination of a nursing background and experience with VR with a vision to create a readily scalable learning platform that can be used to improve both training and patient care. The Bundle of Rays model has evolved as a global education platform that provides an engaging, interactive, approachable service to Health organizations and training providers to discuss, educate, and implement VR broadly within the industry.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/xr-nursing

www.facebook.com/bundleofrays.com

Graciously sponsored by SimVS 
https://www.simvs.com/ 

Innovative SimSolutions.
Your turnkey solution provider for medical simulation programs, sim centers & faculty design.

Transcript

SIM VS Ad: 0:07

We'd like to thank our sponsor for this episode, SIM VS- vital sign monitor systems. The SIM VS monitors can help you economically expand your simulation capabilities. To learn more, please visit them today. Follow the link in the show notes.

Intro: 0:28

Welcome to The Sim Cafe. A podcast produced by the team at Innovative Simsolutions, edited by Shelly Houser. Join our host Deb Tauber, as she sits down with subject matter experts from across the globe to reimagine clinical education and the use of simulation. So pour yourself a couple of relaxation, sit back, tune in and learn something new from the SIM cafe.

Deb: 1:01

Welcome to another episode of The Sim Cafe. Today. We are blessed to have Brad Chatham from Bundle of Rays. And Brad, why don't you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself?

Brad: 1:13

Yeah. Hi morning, Deb. Thanks for having me. Well morning here in Australia. Anyway, I'm a nurse, funny enough, been nursing for a while. Um, I'm an intensive care nurse. I currently live in a place called Alusa, uh, which is basically the rainforest north of Brisbane in Eastern Australia, but I've spent most of my career in central London in the UK. So I worked in some of the biggest ICU units there, and most of my career has been 50% critical care. And then I've spent a lot of time. I've worked in Iraq, Afghanistan. I've worked in Africa up on the north pole up in Northern Norway, um, worked in Mexico. So it's sort of been a mix between Auste environments, whether that's military or humanitarian, and then back into sort of big Metro ICU areas from an education point. I did my training in Australia. I did a master's in, uh, Cambridge in the UK, specialized in ventilation and respiratory mechanics.And I've been pondering about doing a PhD for like three years now, but being an entrepreneur and starting a business and writing a PhD and then being a father of two babies is like begging yourself to book into a mental health institution.<laugh> so I, uh, I didn't wanna, you know, break in my brain fibers and thought that I, I best take care of myself and just stuck with being a founder. And you know, it's been hard enough. So here I am, uh, chewed up and spat out the other side, but, uh, still smiling and, um, doing okay!

Deb: 2:38

Man in the arena, right?

Brad: 2:40

It's a wild world out there. Um, sometimes you never know what's in it, unless you take a couple of steps forward to go and have a look. It's probably probably what running a business is all about. You know, it's, it's, it's, I wouldn't say it's scary, but you know, my eldest son's four, I've got a two year old, you know, to step away from a regular job like nursing and sort of have the pressure of running a business, 60% of startups fail. So, you know, you are taking a massive risk, so it's been, uh, it's been a journey.

Deb: 3:11

And so it has, well, yeah. Why don't you tell our guests a little bit about how you got into this space?

Brad: 3:19

Yeah, that's easy because I'm just like, you probably I'm just a nurse. I was working on the floor doing night shifts. I'd go out drinking. Uh, my friend used to run an art gallery in central London. So I used to go to the art gallery and check out the new exhibits, um, speak to the artists and just so happened at the art gallery. They had holograms different AR based sort of displays. This was about seven years ago and that blew my mind, right. I'm definitely not a gamer, but I love design. I would play some virtual reality games where you go to another planet and walk around. And I just love the beauty of design within, um, VR. You know, once you put a headset on and have a look around when you're in this fantastical environment, it's, it's borderline breathtaking, um, that you can transport your consciousness in about five seconds. You know, you could be sitting in a drab mold, filled basement in central London on a dark and rainy day, and then you pop on a headset and you know, you can be on Mars driving the Mars Rover. It's, it's quite a, a step change from current computing. You can be on your phone or you're on a PC, but spatial computing, as we know it with virtual realities is quite a change. So I, I bought a headset to answer your question directly and I, I teach ECGs or EKGs, uh, and chest x-rays. So what I did is I started the business and I said, you know what, I'm gonna fly around. And I'm gonna go to these cities and teach a a six hour course, and I'm gonna teach people how to analyze a chest x-ray. And I'm going to use virtual reality to do that because a chest x-ray is perfect for VR because it's a snapshot, 2d image of a 3d object being the patient. So, you know, if you have something like a lobular pneumonia, or even something like an aortic dissection in order to understand that pathophysiology, the S spatial context to VR is perfect because you need to understand the overlay of pathology. You need to understand the underlying anatomy and virtual reality allows you to do all of that. So I started flying around using a headset in a classroom, which if anybody has done that is, is a skill in itself. And I've had, you know, what, three and a half near four years now, experience of deploying anywhere between one and 20 headsets into one physical classroom, but also teaching up to a hundred students from Korea, Australia, the us and the UK in one VR classroom. So the pedological approach to how a student absorbs education now is, is exhilarating. And I sounds cheesy, but it's, it's God damn exciting to be able put a headset on and be able to high five someone from the other side of the world and learn a topic together. Even though, you know, you are culturally different, you know, educationally from different backgrounds. Um, I really love what I do, and I have no idea how I've got to the point where I am today, where, you know, we are currently selling education into six countries and about to scale up. And yeah, it's, I've been surrounded by great people, but I've started from a small place, which is, which is cool.

Deb: 6:24

No, that's really, that's very exciting. And I can imagine that seeing it now that I've been able to see it, I can understand it a little bit better. I would say that if you would've asked me six months ago, what I thought of it, I, would've not been a fan at all, but I can see that it has many places in medicine that we can utilize it for. Let's talk a little bit about the adoption curve for virtual reality compared to simulation. And what are some of your thoughts on that?

Brad: 6:53

Um, there's many thoughts.<laugh> um, so this is the thing with the tech industry in general, it's very fragmented. So you've got the first conversation is like, well, what headset do I buy? And, and to be honest, it's really annoying. It's it is extremely frustrating because first of all, you've gotta choose like Oculus, which is the Facebook known or meta owned, um, device. And you've got HTC and Pico and, you know, Pico is also run by a social media company. HTC is in Taiwan and they've all got their answers of what's annoying, like the Oculus headset, you need a Facebook account. So if you are working at a government university, like working with meta is borderline a red flag. That's not gonna happen because of data protection. So this concept of cyber security and it's okay now, because from a, an adoption perspective, like a university might or a hospital might buy some headsets and they're using them for training, but in the next 18 months to three years, they're probably gonna use that same device for digital therapeutics in looking after a patient, or, you know, you might have a member of the public pop that headset on, and they might, there's gonna be different points of data collection on that device that just needs an understanding of what best practice is. So it's not just the data management, it's also the cloud strategy of as that data moves through different servers. Do we really understand that people's, data's being protected? That's one thing from the get go. So hardware is frustrating and a little bit complex in terms of how it gets used over time. Then the next thing is content. Now I would probably say up until six months ago, maybe even a year ago, when you sort of lent into this stuff, is that the content was pretty crappy. It wasn't really enough to give a value proposition for big organizations to have adoption because the headset is just a vessel, right? It's like a VA's. You put the flowers in the VA's and the flowers of the show, right? So what content do you use? And you have to stratify that content and say, all right, well, what's the use case simulation to me is frustrating because as a nurse, I work on the floor still. If I wanna do sim training, I can never get there because I'm busy on the floor, right? So accessibility to simulation is a massive, massive problem. And sim labs are very, very expensive, right? So as an organization, you have this problem, you've got this bright, shiny tool that you could use, but no one can ever get to it. And there's no ever, there's not a, a great, um, uptake in terms of learner agency, because simulation traditionally comes with all this infrastructure. So the learner can't just go there and learn. They're dependent on the ecosystem around the sim lab. So VR simulation then opens a door to, okay, well, maybe the learner could actually be at home and do a sim. Now that's cool. That actually is really cool. And the simulation provider, the moderator could also be at home, right. Or they could be at work or the hospital or whatever it may be, but there's the introduction to flexibility and autonomy around the learning, which I think is, is great for everybody, uh, in terms of business efficiency, but also for learner performance, I would never want simulation to be asynchronous. So you'd want some mentorship and simulation oversight. You know, pre-brief debrief, learning performance over time. The applications are allowing that to some degree, but I there's one thing that drives me crazy is drop down menus. So if you are in a, in a simulation, you wanna simulate. If I'm flying a helicopter, I want the simulation environment to be a helicopter. If I'm in an, if I'm in an immersive environment, I'm scrolling and clicking well, that's an unnatural movement within the simulation environment. So I think simulation still has a ways to go, to be truly simulation like a, a helicopter or aviation type simulator, CX have a great product, but you know, there's other providers like UBCM and Oxford medical that are popular, but I think everybody still needs a small step forward to having that aviation based simulator where it's true reflection of intrinsic work. And then there's the introduction to data, you know, simulation as it is today, the current status quo really lack significant quantitative data at the end of the SIM. You know, what, how long did it take to put oxygen on how long did it take to start doing cardiac arrest? And you know, those little, um, data points over time if Jenny, the nurse did a sim in January, and then she did another one in March and another one in September, those little data points help guide that performance over time, which is really helpful. And VR can add that. So simulation from your perspective, being a simpodcast is obviously a low hanging fruit, but in the last 18 months, content wise in VR, we are kicking a door down in our reality and seeing that these headsets have utility a variety of ways that you can spend a thousand dollars and actually use this one device for 12, 14 different use cases, which I think is exciting, cuz you buy, you spend a hundred thousand dollars on a sim man. You're using him for simulation. You know, you're not gonna use him to teach students the coronary arteries and go through anatomy. Then you're not gonna use him to work through conflict resolution and you know, in a viable, in a viable way. So I think the use cases around content are fascinating. And then obviously you can grade the quality of the applications today around that. Uh, and then as I said, the fragmented hardware and then from adoption, you've got the actual tech adoption, right? Like actually picking up the headset, turning it on, connecting to wifi, like the, the device management component, right? So nursing is predominantly female and in Australia as well, it's like predominantly 45 years to, to 65 years old tech adoption. Like I remember I came to Queensland and one nurse confided in me. We were going from paper to an IMR and she confided into me that she didn't know how to write clip on a mouse, cuz she's never really used a computer a lot. This was like five years ago. And you know, that level of digital literacy across the board is kind of a requirement to use VR. You have to have sort of a digital literacy to understand how to do the wifi in. Now that said, once you are onboarded, I find people are very intuitive. Once you get it, you know, spend 20 minutes getting it. And that's the Finese, it's the, I see this as the biggest opportunity at the moment and something our, our company is working on is the, the train, the trainer part of the industry. You know, we are developing a train, the train, a course, we're working with big blue chip providers, not about simulation, not about anatomy. It's about how does this headset work in the classroom? Because if you get that wrong from the get go, well, it doesn't matter what you teach because the end users are gonna be disgruntled. They're gonna be annoyed. They're gonna be disengaged. So absolutely in order, in order to have that, Finese from the get go, you've gotta kick off with enthusiasm. And uh, what's the word like, um, it's competency as a teacher in the classroom?

Deb: 13:42

No, I would. I totally agree. Because once you have a bad taste about something, then you don't wanna go back to it.

Brad: 13:49

Now that's fascinating. Right? So with simulation a nd a mannequin, I dare s ay that we tell ourselves a story. We walk i nto a piece of plastic in a room and we tell ourselves a story. And what we do is we commit to that story. So if you and me were doing a sim around advanced life support, so you are running the sim, I'm the learner. And you say to me, Hey, this is Tom. He was shopping today and developed w ith a chest pain at Walmart. And he's been brought in by ambulance and he's here today. Can you assess him? Right? And then I walk over to this big piece of plastic in a training center. And I, I go through my assessment. I'm committing, I have this level of commitment to my learning, to give to the story and to work through the story. Now with VR, it's fascinating because if you put a nurse in VR and it doesn't work within a minute, they're like, n o, this is crap. I'm not dealing with it. So that commitment is there for the status quo, but it's not there for the new concept. So I think that commitment to the story that we're telling each other is the comfort of the status q uo rather than the new, whether it's VR, whether it's AR, whether it's doing online learning or doing zoom lectures or whatever it might be. It's the change that needs a little bit of massaging in my opinion.

Deb: 15:06

I totally agree. I completely agree. Because when you first get into first got into simulation 15 years ago, I mean, it was that element of trying to remember that you really are present. You have to kind of put your, put yourself in that space that you are going to be in this reality and that you're going to make it real.

Brad: 15:27

Yeah. And, and, you know, I, I just think it's the narrative that you come as a teacher through the story, the, the energy you bring to the room, you know, that classic approach to building the session and good teachers are good at that. Right. So that's where I'm at with it.

Deb: 15:43

Yeah. One person I know, um, Tom, LeMaster, he, he used to say this and I kind of stole this from him. It's I know that this isn't real, you know, that this isn't real. I know that you know, that he knows that she knows that this isn't real, but for all practical purposes, let's suspend reality today and pretend that this is real.

Brad: 16:01

Yeah. So the crazy thing about VR, when you put a headset on it has a level of realism, right. You know, I, I, I work with a company called first aid VR. So, uh, they do CPR training, right? So you put a headset on and there's a, a patient who's collapsed and you have to go ahead and practice basic life support. Now the cool thing with this app is actually when you reach out to grab the patient, it maps the VR to the mannequin. So you're grabbing a physical thing. So rather than doing your basic life support in some training room, now you just put the headset on and you're in the city. There's cars going past there's people calling out a bus stops in front of you. And you've, you've had the same conversation with each other. This isn't real. It's not real. It's not real. You put the headset on you go, but my brain is telling me, this is real. That's the next step with VR or any sort of level of immersion and a sense of presence and pathologically that's the power that all of these universities at the moment are scrapping to try and understand the level of validity around that. So we can tell the story to that is the research telling us that. And so far as they're walking up the street and entering this new dimension, it's sort of saying, yeah, probably is, is a reasonable add-on with answers that need to be managed. But that level of realism that we tell each other is having an uptick with this technology.

Deb: 17:20

I would totally agree. Now, Brad, I always ask my guests, do you have a favorite or most impactful simulation story you can share?

Brad: 17:28

Wow. Yeah. In my nursing career, I've traveled a lot overseas and I worked in Mosul, Iraq during the ISIS fight. So Moses was the center of the caliphate for ISIS. And I was just coincidentally, I was doing my tour there when the Iraqi government came back and took back the city. So it was quite a, a busy time. And we ended up looking after some young girls who were attacked with chlorine gas, and it was actually an accident. A rocket had hit their building and these girls were the wives of ISIS soldiers and the chlorine was being stored in the basement. So a missile exploded quite closely to the basement and ignited this chlorine and sent the gas through the building. Now, just beforehand, a couple of days before we had been practicing for like a weapon of mass destruction process. And I never really understood the, the, the management process of exposure to chlorine. And we went, you know, we had the full hazmat suits and we were making fun of it. And we were in the showers and you have to d econ out the front of the, t he emergency department area. A nd, you know, we're all dancing in our suits and having fun. And then literally like two or three days later, we had this incident. And without doing that sim a couple of days b eforehand, the team would've fell over. There's no doubt about it. You know, where are the suits kept? You know, how do the respirators fit the head properly? You know, all those little time critical moments. And it was just coincidence. I look back now and think how scary that was that we did that SIM because we had all the boxes there, you know, a nd I was there quite a while. S o we're like we should get all that stuff out and go through that. And, a nd then within two days of that happening, we actually had to do a full, and we had four girls all under 30 and they all died within six hours og arriving to the ED c uz of the dose of chlorine that they had. It was one o f the most horrific things I've ever done. But the concept of applying that training at that time, because some of these people had never even worn a respirator before I worked in central London and we had, you know, a swine f lu outbreak years ago and we had t he similar, so I was quite familiar with the process and w hatnot, but that's probably my most impactful sim was, w as going through that because it was, it was a wild 12 hours because we didn't know if it was a biological attack or a chemical attack. So we had the u s, u h, D OD came to the c amp the next day to sort of investigate, you know, what went on and how it went down and all that k ind o f stuff. So, yeah, that's probably my craziest sim story I c ould probably pull out.

Deb: 19:55

Thank you. Yeah. That is a, a very interesting story. And thankfully you guys were able to make a difference.

Brad: 20:01

Yeah. It made a difference to my blood pressure. That's for sure. Deb, I think I still had a systolic of like one 90 a week after I got home from that tour. So it was pretty, pretty crazy. Yeah.

Deb: 20:11

Brad, what do you think about the future of simulation, the future of virtual reality? How long do you think it's gonna take for this to come to adaptation?

Brad: 20:22

Look, I think it's easy to be bullish because of the marketing. You know, there's a lot of crap in VR. I really hate it. You know, there's some studies that come out and I, they don't even studies. They're just white papers. There's too many white papers. If I see another white paper, I, I just, it, it just, degradates the, the quality of the brand that's putting out the paper because it's just marketing, you know, that's, it's a real problem in virtual reality, real problem. And you'll notice that I spent bundle of Ray spends zero on marketing. I don't do it. I refuse to do any marketing and we do podcasts. So we create content, but I don't even, I don't run Facebook ads. I don't, I spend zero. So, you know, we grown our revenue last year was nearly a million dollars in revenue. And that's simply from word of mouth here in Australia and me working with different companies. So what is the future of simulation? Now? I've got some exciting projects with some VR vendors and, you know, I can load up my laptop and I could have one learner in Uganda. I could have one learner in India, a learner in the us and a learner in Australia. And they today can log in, in the same simulation and work together on the one case with proper simulation methodology. Now that's gonna change everything that we know about simulation because concept of telesim is so unattractive cameras and mannequins, and it's a distinct story we're telling ourself that logistically is annoying, you know, like, and it's expensive. So with VR, the great benefit is that we can scale good teachers, full stop to standardize. The methodology of simulation is critical because if we have a variation in the simulationist, then the output of the simulation will be varied. So being able to standardize the quality of simulation is exciting. So how will simulation advance? I think there'll be exploration in AR cuz it's not quite there yet, but it's, there's gonna be a mixed reality future where these two fuse together is what I believe. Immersive learning as a pillar, and then understanding how that pillar plugs into the status quo is where we're gonna be for the next 18 months, two years in terms of virtual reality. I personally think, you know, I was in the city the other day, Bundle of Rays is currently working with a manufacturer to make cases, to carry headsets, right? Because I was sitting in the city, having a coffee, watching the world, go by. And, and when you watch people get on a train or walk around the city, they've all got a laptop bag. You know, they all carry their laptop to work and everybody has got their phone in their hand. And the real way we should be talking about virtual or VR and AR is, is not in that context. It's in the context that it's a form of S spatial computing. So, you know, in the nineties we had a PC, then we had our phones as mobile computing. Well, now these devices are just a form of spatial computing. It's a, it's a natural evolution in our technological advancement. So it's not a question of how will VR work in simulation? You know, the VR obvious thing is how's VR working in society in general. And you know, people might put a headset on today and look at UBI Sim or CX or Oxford medical and go, yeah, it's good. You know, it's not that good thing is we are just starting man. Like these avatars are borderline photo realistic. Now, you know, some of the AI conversation can be clunky, you know, it's cloud based. So connectivity can be a bit clunky, but the thing is look where we are now with mobile phones, like, oh my Lord, have they come along? Right? So if you get on board now and you understand how to charge them and you can get'em onto wifi and you maybe follow a blog or two and get yourself a little bit educated about this new form of computing. Then in two years time, this is gonna be staple. You know, kids at school are gonna be learning their chemistry like this. People are gonna be onboarding in new jobs in like HR based jobs. Using VR Accenture, the consulting company have 60,000 headsets in their business. And every single new staff member that signs up with them gets a laptop and a VR headset. Now that's one company, 60,000 headsets. So social integration is already underway. Facebook's spending 10 billion a year on implementing different concepts and pushing the, the industry. So I think it'll just be like, you know, if you're at a university, you know, Jenny from South Florida signs up to her degree, hi, I'm the lecturer, here's your textbook, here's your laptop. Here's your VR headset. These are your learning resources that you are going to use for your degree. Now that's a future focused, modern way to think about education in the real world. And that will happen in every degree, not just nursing like engineering, there's gonna be, I, I know a guy that works in engineering and he specializes in surfing. They're already looking at using VR for, for manufacturing, looking at the surfboards, understanding aerodynamics like the spacial computing part is what we should be thinking about. Where do I see it in the future? I see it as being, you know, it's not a magic bullet cuz some of it does suck. It's not ever gonna be a 100% thing. And we didn't want that with zoom and video. Right. So I think it'll be a, a mainstay, it'll be a, a learning resource that gets given to learners to, to be better at whatever it is they're doing.

Deb: 25:51

Right. And I, I think you hit on a lot of things during that segment. I really thank you for that. I think that the digital literacy is really big. That's, you know, it's gonna be something that we're gonna have to face, uh, work together to, you know, make sure that we can provide for those who are unable to have resources, digital literacy.

Brad: 26:11

Yeah. And my company, like I said, you know, we've had a lot of growth and we're going really well. It's quite an exciting time, but our we've got this mind's eye approach that like, I still talk to the academics at mole university in Iraq. So we've got this mind's eye approach about low middle income countries. Like, you know, why should the innovation just be accessible to us? The whole point of virtual reality is collaboration. So we're already working on very significant projects to onboard low middle income countries. I'm flying to Sri Lanka in three weeks and I'm building a, a virtual reality based hub at one of the largest nursing schools in Colombo and S Lanka. Now they've just had one of the most significant economic crisises in the modern world as a country. But yet we are gonna be setting up one of the largest VR hubs in Asia. Right. So cuz my company wants to help. Right? It's not because I'm looking to be a unicorn and a founder and I want the cash is I actually just wanna help nursing. You know, I've been out there long enough to know that this actually does provide a benefit. So it's an exciting time to see how it gets adopted. But uh, there definitely is challenges.

Deb: 27:15

I would agree. You know, I'm just gonna ask you one more question because you're in Australia, how did the pandemic working in the ICU? What was that like for you?

Brad: 27:25

Coincidentally, as my business grew, you know, I stepped out of clinical nursing just before the pandemic started and then once it started, it was hard to get back in because my business was going so big. So I was very lucky to, to have stepped away from clinical nursing. Actually one of my friends, you know, she's in Ukraine at the moment cuz I do a lot of this austere work. I said to my wife, you know, that's something I wouldn't have mind doing, but having two kids now plus running the business, it's not like I can just step away for six weeks in terms of the XR technology thing. I don't think COVID, you know, people say our accelerated business. I don't really think it did actually. I, I think it inflamed curiosity and people were like, what is this VR thing? But once mark Zuckerberg released the whole meta metaverse blah, blah, blah, people really started to pay attention. Like if you have a look on LinkedIn or social media, you know, hashtag metaverse and people using this word metaverse has just gone outta control. And the reality is the metaverse doesn't even exist. It's just marketing really. Once, once mark Zuckerberg threw the fuel on the fire, that it was away, it's outta the bag and people are paying attention because there's a lot of money involved now.

Deb: 28:35

Right? No, I totally agree. Do you have any questions for me?

Brad: 28:39

No. I think, uh, you know, I've been listening to The Sim Cafe podcast and I think I look at the simulation world with a high level of curiosity because it VR is do, and it's the same in medicine, you know, VR has this sort of domination around simulation and I get it. I absolutely get it. But VR has so much more to offer and I, I'm very interested to see how it navigates the simulation market because really what I see and how I've built my business is an aggregation business, a business of partners. I've I partner with 3d Organon, the anatomy behind me, because if you have a headset in a sim lab, it seems redundant to me that you just use that for simulation. It defeats the whole point of virtual reality because the headset can do so much more. So the concept of headset utility, like you can use the headset on Tuesdays between two and six for Sims, but actually, you know, in the morning, executives are using it for their meetings for cross campuses. And then, you know, admin staff are using it for hate, uh, for soft skills training and, and the development of these different use cases to make the overall business efficient. That's the really exciting part. So I'm, I'm really sort of sitting back with popcorn, watching the simulation industry, digest this, to see what the key players see as the value proposition for this, because it's not that I don't, I disagree. I just think there's probably some blinders on where it's all about simulation and you know, once, once people start taking off the blinkers, um, it's gonna get really cool, like really cool cause even interprofessional learning, you know, that's the other thing here is like understanding if, if you are learning, you know, if you do a sim and it's about hypocolemia or something, you know, like doing a SIM, but then having XR experiences where you're in a potassium cell with a doctor and a pharmacy student, the level of creativity around the pedagogy starts to get really sexy to me. So that's what I like about the simulation industry is observing it and just sort of saying, wow, you know, these guys are doing good and, and watching the companies grow and, you know, looking at their strategy. And I just sit down here in Australia with my popcorn and, and take my time and, and be quite measured with, with what I do because, um, being in a startup, there's a high level of risk with the strategy. So if I make the wrong choice, I'm, I'm out in a swamp. So yeah, probably just a high level of observation for me at the minute in simulation, because my use cases around curriculum, I don't see, I have a big growth area directly in SIM because I see sim as an element of curriculum. So I'm looking at it as a different construct, you know, I'm, I'm taking away the sim lab and I'm actually making the sim the classroom.

Deb: 31:24

Can I look at simulation as a vehicle? I mean, it's a, just a different type of a car. You know, you could be a, in a Lexus, you could be in a Volvo, you could be in a Lamborghini. So simulation is just one vehicle.

Brad: 31:37

Yes, absolutely.

Deb: 31:39

Yeah. If our listeners wanna get ahold of you, where are the best places to reach out?

Brad: 31:45

Yeah. So either just, um, brad@bundleofraise.com in email, quite active on LinkedIn, uh, I usually hate Facebook and Insta<laugh>, but we have a, we have a presence there. We usually sort of just display work that we are getting done, but I'm quite active on LinkedIn. So feel free to, to hit me up. And I usually quite open if people want to have a chat about how to do this and how to do that, you know, I'm always open to collaborations and discussions. So, um, yeah, feel free to just, we've gotta get the time zones. Right. You know, the amount of webinars and things I've done at two in the morning or, or 4:00 AM, that's usually the challenge for North American folk.

Deb: 32:19

Right. And we wanted to put that on, you know, we wanted to do that one live and it was a little bit clunky, but we can try that again. I think that's a really good idea to do a V a VR.

Brad: 32:31

Yeah, no, we, we do, you know, we bundle Lares does podcasts and seminars and different things in VR quite consistently. So maybe even we could get a panel of people and jump into VR and have a bit of a discussion around, um, you know, the train, the trainer part, lots of interesting things we can achieve. So more than happy to work towards that in the future. But, um, yeah. Any listeners out there that either think I'm worth talking to, or I'm a little bit crazy and just want to pick my brain about a topic, um, feel free. It'd be great to have a chat.

Deb: 32:57

Thank you so much. Thank you. And happy simulating.

Brad: 33:01

Yeah, no worries. Thanks Deb.

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Outro: 33:09

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